Winnipeg Stadium 'Hard' reality from feds' BS!!!!!

    • Olympics money came from the previous pig-at-the trough government.
  1. Seems to me that Winnipeggers have already decided where to park their vote and even if the government paid for the entire stadium the current party in power wouldn't get any Winnipeg seats. :slight_smile:

...when you're in a minority situation my friend...EVERY seat counts....unless you want to remain in a minority govt. ...or not in govt. at all...harsh reality....so i wouldn't discount MAN. voters....

pig-at the trough govt. ...referring to libs. i imagine.....well that really doesn't matter a hulluva lot who handed the dollars out...THEY WERE HANDED OUT...and i believe Man. deserves its fair share ...and fair share of money that will be returned ,as BeerBarons has said....and probably a helluva lot more than the Olympics will ever give back... :lol:

Hey BeerBarons

What we have on this issue is a political debate on the proper way to handle tax dollars. I’m going to get onto that right away, but I don’t understand how you could suggest that any Sun publication would allow left-of-center content. Calling Brodbeck a “tree-hugger? is an insult to tree-huggers. If anything, the Brodbeck article is as right-wing-damn-the-trees as you can get.

Do we, as a society, support public amenities? Yes we do – libraries, hospitals, legislatures etc. Was the current stadium privately funded? No. Large projects are generally public work projects and we should expect some tax money to go towards an amenity that improves the overall quality of life. In some cases the public investment is small, in others large. You can never guage investment/return by comparing one project with another. A new hospital in Winnipeg might cost as much as a new hospital on a reserve. The hospital in Winnipeg gets more return on investment but would anyone deny the reserve because of the lesser return? So, should taxes go towards a stadium? Of course.

Some of your points are hard to understand:
You argue with yourself saying on the one hand that this is such a poor city that we are the dollar-store, welfare etc capital. On the other hand you say we have a good tax base. Both can’t be true and the snails-pace of improvements belies a good tax base. The base is improving with higher real-estate prices but we won’t see a return on that for several years.

You also say:
The city of Winnipeg and province of Manitoba admited that all their photo radar and speed traps are set up to generate revenue and not promote safety.
They generate multi millions of dollars tricking people into speeding so that they can give ordinary people including senior citizens 170-200$ speeding tickets.
In addition the Casinos in Manitoba generate A PROFIT of about 300 million dollars a year.

Since when have tickets not been a source of revenue? Since the dawn of civilization city governments have passed ordinances, posted signs, informed the public and still a significant number of people miss the messages. Fines have always been in place and every one of those raised revenue. News-flash: Winnipeg is not the only city in the world to hand out speeding tickets. If people are going to be stupid they have to pay a stupidity-tax. And, Casinos generating a profit? The mob didn’t build Las Vegas as a chartity.

I have it on good authority that Sam Katz was near bankruptcy prior to his election run. He was bailed out by the local, oh let’s call them The Non-TreeHugging Party who then proposed that he pay them back by standing for Mayor and instigating their platform. Since a lot of those backers represent the auto dealers your list of transportation improvements was killed. You may recall that it was a tree-hugger who arranged for federal funding for our first mass-transit corridor and it was Sammy who killed it. The vested interests called for an expansion of roads so as to force Winnipegers to buy their cars.

Under the tree-hugger we had numerous and beautiful public works. Under Sammy we have had none. I take it you’re a youngish guy so here’s a little history. Winnipeg had always been a strong city with a diversified economy and with many high-tech industries. This was based on two major employers – Air Canada and CN Rail, both of which were Crown Corps and both of which made piles of money. Both were moved to Quebec to buy votes and when all was over we had lost 20K+ well paying high-skill jobs both directly and in service/support. Since that time we have had all of zilch and nada as compensation from the feds. We went from a going concern to a basket-case in a matter of months. Consider Calgary if the oil ran out tomorrow and you get the picture. If anything, I’m proud of the way this city and the province have bounced back. What I’m not proud of is the local political infighting that prevents us from taking the big steps to a full recovery. Bring on the public dough.

David Asper has the wherewithal to build a new stadium without public funding. Since he wants public funding he must not feel that sole onwership of the team and facility by itself is financially feasible. My own belief is that if he truly wants the stadium, the team and the real estate it would occupy then pony up the bucks. If it is as good as others think then as a long term investment he should reap rewards. Give him the team, the current site, new and underlying improvements to infrastructure and perhaps a tax holiday but don't give him any hard cash.

If that doesn't fly I agree with a previous post, let the province and city fund it and exclude federal participation entirely.

Casino revenue does not go entirely to the City or the Province anymore, last year Gary Doer being the genius that he is negotiated with the First Nations after they complained that they should get a cut of the profits from gambling revenues be it from VLTs and Casinos on Indian land or on Crown land, I believe he negotiated to 25% for them. That's where a lot of our other revenue goes as well.

...if fed. dollars aren't forth-coming ...then i believe Asper has plan 2 in the wings...and will have to re-jig his proposal....HOWEVER...all in all that will not sit well with Manitobans...or Winnipegers specifically...We could look at this as....'Seems as though other provinces can get funding for different projects....what the hell is wrong with us'....The feds better think this one over reallll good.... :thup:i would hate to have the Aspers campaigning ,lets say 'not' for me, if i was running for office.....blackmail you say....i calls it politics...heh heh..and once again harsh reality... :wink:

...rumour is the $40 mil from the feds originally earmarked for the BB stadium is now being redirected to provide private luxury boxes at Commonwealth and McMahon....

;;;how the heck did Alta. swing that one RedW.....could it be its Harper country..just kidding...i thought all the big money was being spent on the SEA to SKY highway in B.C. ...LOL :lol:

For your information commercial siteholders operating VLTs terminals earned revenues of $95.6 million. As to First Nations Casinos visit the Mb Lotteries website and view the last annual report before you stick your neck out.

Under its community support programs, MLC directly supports over 825 organizations and fundraising events annually. Close to $4.0 million annually is provided to non-profit community organizations through the Casinos of Winnipeg Volunteer Bingo Program and over $1.7 million in support is provided to Manitoba events and charitable organizations through our Community Support Program. MLC’s employees have also launched ECHO (Employees Care by Helping Others), an employee-based organization that is raising funds to support worthwhile community causes.

hehehe redandwhite is poking the bear again. :stuck_out_tongue:

And to be clear, I'm not against fed dollars, I'm just trying to make it clear that this gov't will study the proposal before handing over the dough. And regardless of where it goes, it's still my money going. Not some far off entity that gets money from nowhere.

Funny how the "Have" province of Alberta is always bitching about Federal interference in provincial matters and how rich they are but are the first to want someone else to pay for it. A very selfish attitude and arrogance. It p***es me off.

a few interesting points...

Tom Br. is as right wing as most former reformers. Just look at his stance on crime and other things.

While the city will retain ownership, the Bombers get it almost rent free and have priority over all other activities including the right to veto events.

Asper has the ability to walk away from the Bombers, but would retain the rights to the commercial operations linked to the stadium. The team would go back to being community owned or sold to another private owner.

The Olympics compared to the CFL no comparsion, one is international and one is local. One focuses on the merits of sport, one is a commercial endeavour. While the Montreal games didn't get allot of sustainable infrastructure the Calgary games did. Most of that infrastructure is available to Canadian Sporting federations and to the public. If you have gone for a trip down the bobsled course you don't know what you are missing.

The soccer field in Toronto was associated with FIFA under 18s and the I believe the University was involved (not sure).

While I support the work the need for the stadium, most people are seeing Asper as the saviour. Well here is a question, if you removed the commercial component to the new stadium, how much would it cost. Of the proposed $120 M. of which it was going to be a three way split:

Asper would have contributed $40 M, mostly going to the commercial venture, of which he gets reduced taxes, and I believe has the ability to retain the rights to if anything changes with respect to ownership. Estimated tax savings is $2-4 Million for 10 years. Okay, so his forty million investment is really $20Million at the high end and $0 at the low end if he last 10 years. And that is just in tax savings, never mind the rent that he will get. Assuming a modest $1-2M in rent over 10 years, that is increases his profit by 10 to 20 million. I wish I could have 120% return on investment over 10 years.

I said it before, look at what is left over when the stadium is built.

...lol, talk about someone with their panties riding way way up their crack....you do realise it was a joke don't you?...holy cow dood, take a friggin pill and mellow out....

...the olympics aren't a commercial endeavour...don't make me laugh....tell that to the sponsors who pour millions into them wanting to realize big profits , when they get their name in the spotlight......and the provincial govts. who dream of the big tourist bucks after they put them on....the benefits from that are mostly localized... all i'm saying is give Manitoba a break on a 'sports' venture...just like a few provinces have received...Asper is willing to initiate it...with his own money....i think the least the feds. could do is step up to the plate...

Top Hat, you covered 5.7 million dollars from casinos and VLTs.
What about the other 294.3 Million.
Even if 25% went to the first nation people thats still alot of money.
My source is directly from Manitoba Loteries.
Oh and you forgot that Manitoba Loteries also donates 1 million dollars a year to the gambling addition foundation,lol

I was activly involved in politics when I was a teen in the 80s and have followed Winnipegs economy for years.
And no I did not contradict myself.
Winnipeg has a mixture of very rich and very poor, but overall we are still a have not city.
My point that I was making is that I am pissed off when I hear a pollitician say we need our tax dollars for infrastructure, ect.
That is just a way of trying to keep votes.
In a budget money is always put aside for roads, hospitals ,ect.
No money will be taken out of that budget for a stadium. What we are asking for is other money that is used for other things like adding pretty paintings in parks, or gardens and bike paths in Altona or a new statue of a fish in Dominion City.
There is money in a budget for roads and there is money in the budget for other things.
Now I am actually a fan of Vic Toews, he is usually pretty good. But this time I disagree with him.

Perhaps your right about how Winnipeg became a hole and bounced back, but it is still a hole because that so called budget for so called infrastructure is not being spend here in Winnipeg.
Where is that budget for a freeway or express way?
To show you how old I am, in the past 40 years the only improvment to Winnipegs out dated traffic system were 2 things.

  1. The chaleswood bridge that took 45 years to build and...
  2. The Kenaston extension to Bishop Grandon that defeated is purpose because when they did added a ton of red lights to it.
    Ok I will add another
  3. A train bridge going over Kenaston that also took 20 years to build.

If money was used to update our traffic system then fine, I would be happy to say that we dont need a stadium, but the truth is, our infrastructure is a JOKE.
Here is what Wiki says about our traffic system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Winnipeg

What boasted our economy in Winnipeg was get this,,,, SPORTS!
Winnipeg was a sinking ship with a high level of unemployment and cheap run down housing.
What changed Winnipeg were 3 things in a row.
The 1998 Grey Cup, the 1999 Pan Am Games, and the World Jr Hockey Championship.
In 1990 we entered into a resession and Winnipeg was a dying city until our biggest boom in a long time that started in 1998.
The above sporting events (Mostly the Pan Am Games) drove Winnipegs Ecomony from small to huge and temporary stadiums were build all over Winnipeg.
New Construction was happening all over the city and I, a Graduate in a electrical course in 1994 finally got a job in my feild in 1998,lol.
Sports are why Winnipeg is out of the gutter. Say what you want but its true.

Just a note, Teows is like the answer in the song,“blowin’ in the wind”. He’ll flex hard until it costs him public opinion then flip-flop just in time to grab as much credit as he can. Enjoy the poker game!

Vic Toews is a thief. He used to be a Manitoba PC and he jumped ship after the vote rigging scandel. Ask him how much money he made when MTS was privatised :wink:

Hey everyone, Winnipeg will OWN a new stadium if we support Asper's plan. For all those people who think that Asper should pay for the whole thing himself, well he probably could afford it. But if he paid for the whole thing himself, do you think Winnipeg would own it? It would be HIS stadium.

Any public money put into the stadium will be made back in 5 years. So basically five years from now, we'd have a new stadium and it would cost us $0.

Or we could just wait for Canad Inns to fall down... Stupid Manitoba politicians...

beerbarons > I think your last comment you directed at me was aimed at someone else. I didn't comment on your age or say anything about Winnipeg being a hole. I think I'm confused.