When Having a Team and a New Stadium Matters...and Why

•Date: October 28, 2010
•Time: 7:00 PM
•Location: McMaster University Health Sciences Centre, Rm. 1A6
Free event. Space is limited.
Poster for the event: [url]http://www.socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/crunch/images/stadium%20poster%20low%20res.pdf[/url]
Event details: [url]http://www.socsci.mcmaster.ca/crunch[/url]

This is the same clown that thinks Hamilton is the 5th largest market in North America. His lack of knowledge is astounding. A giant waste of time IMO. I pray that none of my tax money is being used to support this paid advertisment for Katz AEG's attempt to use Hamilton to get a deal in Edmonton

I have been debating with myself as to whether or not I want to go. I truly want to absorb both sides of this stadium debate but I have read so many such reports that I am getting numb. In the end, our city is different and this has to be about what is best and will work for our city - not what worked for others.

This is the same clown that thinks Hamilton is the 5th largest market in North America

You know AKT, I think this is the crux of the entire stadium situation. Basically Hamilton is situated so close to major markets like Toronto and Buffalo and a bit further Cleveland and Detroit. It is difficult therefore to find an identity and as well these markets provide a lot of leisure time entertainment options for people to spend their money on. Marvin Ryder in the Hamilton was mentioned as saying some 40,000 people each day leave Hamilton for jobs outside of Hamilton, people who live in hamilton and therefore we are a bit of a bedroom community. This is a pressure point I would say.

With respect to this though, I would say it reinforces why, if we ie. Hamilton is the in this 5th largest market in North America, a stadium needs to be located next to a major highway to attract these people. If we were some isolated city with a true identity of it's own far from major markets, like Edmonton, different story. But we aren't. People move all over the GTA in cars and Go Trains and subways.

Is there room for 2 CFL teams so close together in this area to remain viable? I'm not sure. NHL fans would say of course. For the CFL, I'm really not so sure. It is a confusing part of the country this southern Ontario/GTA area.

You have to wonder if stadium and many othere options in Toronto all come into play. No real identity of their own. Same stadium as the Jays, with an empty upper deck filled with large photos to make it seem less empty, poor location for 'tailgating', etc.

They do however, have easy access right off the GO for those of us in Hamilton and Oshawa travelling to TO to see the games, great cheerleeder uniforms I might add, nice uniforms in general with an overall nice visual product, but have struggled on the field for the most part. Hopefully those struggles continue in the playoffs. :wink:

It almost seems both teams are at a crossroads even though if the game against Montreal is any testament, we have really turned it around.

I can't imagine the league with only one or the other. Take away Hamilton and I lose a lot of interest, and take away Toronto and you take away the Labour Day classic and this great rivalry. Each team needs to find their identities, although I would challenge that a lot of Hamilton's identity is in Ivor Wynne.

As it stands now, the new stadium seem like it will not be much frills wise, other than being new at a new location. It might be something more like the Argos need, then the Cats. You almost have to wonder if the money posed for Hamilton, would be better utilized to make major upgrades to Varsity Stadium and make it a Montreal-style University/CFL venue. Skydome is still unfortunately there for the Grey Cup like Olympic Stadium is unfortunately available for the Grey Cup in Montreal, but now they have more of an idenity of their own in a much more intimate venue.

If Ivor Wynne isn't the way to go, we need something very different for Hamilton. It's something I wonder about anyway. Is the 'big' move all the way across town too big of a change? What do we stand to lose, and what we are counting on gaining, does it change this franchise so much that we alienate and stray from what makes the Tiger-Cats a very unique product in this league? We can't have 8 or 10 teams that for the most part, are more or less the same outside of colors and jerseys and the cities they play in.

Can we truly build a new stadium, if we don't know what we want to be when we grow up? It's a term used in a management course I recently took, but I like the phrase. What does Hamilton want to be when it grows up? Post Stelco and industrial Hamilton? Do we become a Hollywood North with so many movies already being shot here, turning old factories into sound stage studios? What will beomce of thate area of our waterfront? Hotels? What is our vision and how can the new stadium reflect that, or how even could the old stadium or a stadium in the same district reflect that?

I think we still are that old stadium and I don't mean that in a bad way. We are a historic city. A tough city. A hard workingi city. Ivor Wynne has a very unique image that truly represents us. It makes us a close community because the community is close to the stadium.

That # you have put out there Earl is astounding. 40,000 leave this city a day??? It makes sense if you look at the parking lots in Aldershot and Burlingto GO. If you see the number of commuters on the train each day and the volume of traffic. I am one of them for sure, but we have to start bringing major business here as now they are talking of trying to widen the 403 at some point because of the traffic issues. The solution is keeping us here and creating work for us here. Not more highways.

So we have to build a stadim off a highway because there are not jobs here? Sad. Reality of course, but sad.

40000 leave, but how many stay? The negitive spin doctors take their toll on this City everyday, yes its fact the steel industry is suffering and fading, yet others, new and old business take hold and shape our future.

Focus on those that stay before worrying about those that leave. This city requires change indeed but it has to be change thats made in Hamilton by us no one else, but if we are to afraid to invest even if it hurts and take a chance then nothing will ever improve and that 40000 will soon become 100000. We have a sick heart in Hamilton and that heart is the down town core. We have to forget what we see now or percieve to be the core and reinvent it with this opportunity before us.

Ask the experts tonight if building a down town core is like playing connect the dots you ll see why WH did not work, get your answer and then look for benifits that a core stadium will have. Understanding planing is what these people are about. Landmarks denote the appeals of any city and the better these landmards are linked via transportation of multiple modes the more success. Barriers can not seperate civic venues but they must be spread out allowing private business to thrive between them.

Having this team and a new stadium is so important to Hamilton and both the team and the city must prosper.

Cant do this on the cheap !!!!

From the Hamiltonian

1.You recently cited that there are 40,000 more people leaving Hamilton every day for jobs than actually work in Hamilton, thus making us something of a bedroom community. How do we arrest this trend and reverse it?

Clearly he is stating that 40,000 more Hamiltonians work outside the city than the total number of workers in Hamilton. The number must be massive or nobody works here any more

Good points. Part of me would really like to see some cooperative effort between so many parties about the stadium project the "Hamilton" stadium project. If we could go back in time I think HOSTCO could have said look Hamilton, thanks for the offer of $60-$70 mill of the FF money for a stadium but why don't we, the city of Hamilton, Toronto, Oakville, Burlington, Mississauga, owners of the Argos, Ticats, CFL commish and maybe some others sit down and hash out what the best use of resources is for the PanAms, what is needed, soccer and football afterwards, CFL, Grey Cups, TFC and come up with some sort of shared solution.

I guess I'm dreaming in technicolour but resources are thin today in this economy and we, as a region, Oshawa - Kitchener - Niagara triangle need to look at this PanAm thing and funnell resources collectively for the greater good of the games themselves.

At any rate, we'll just have to see how it all shakes out. How many stadiums do we need in this area and for what and to be used by whom and how far apart is too far apart or too close? School boards and the Ministry of Health grapple with these sorts of issues a lot.

I'm sick and tired of games playing but I guess that's what happens in these sorts of situations. HOSTCO playing this city and what they are offering agains't that city and what they are offering type of thing.

If the league hadn't had so many lean years where it fell miles and miles behind the NFL in terms of marketing and sponsorship and revenue(on a relative basis of course), I think we'd be looking at an ideal # of three 30k-seater stadiums for football/soccer/concerts/celebrations, by now, each with potential to permanently/temporarily expand to 50k plus as needed. 1 in Toronto, 1, in Hamilton, and 1 serving London/K-W. There would be much more actual/potential private investment into these venues than we're now seeing. Governments might have put more money into them along with community recreational and athletic centres next to them... real sports and fitness precincts in the cores of cities. CFL teams would be in better shape to contribute money to these projects in a more proportionally desirable way, and so on. But southern ontario as an economy has shrank the last 5 years or so, the CFL has been declining for more like the last 15-20 years in southern ontario, and so there just is no will to pool resources and have a truly regional and integrative development strategy when it comes to sports team owners, levels of government, businesses and investors, etc. There doesn't seem to be a collective will to take that Oshawa-Kitchener-Niagara triangle and turn the whole thing into one big development zone.

The Cfl has been declining for more like the last 10-15 years ??????????????? your telling us the CFL was stronger in 1990-1995 then it is today in Southern Ontario ?

Agreed Earl, but I might even reword your sentence to read, "I think this is the crux of the entire question of the viability of the CFL in Hamilton"

Frankly, I don't think stadium location will make whole lot of difference to attendence whether, it be East Mountain, West harbour, CP railyards, or Confederation Park. The Tiger-Cat market is what the Tiger-Cat market is. People will either want to go to the game, or they won't.

They'll either want to spend their time and money on CFL football, or something else.

The Tiger-Cats think an urban development with a proper stadium location can be very successful and Scott is looking forward to Dr.Rosentraub’s presentation today. In anticipation of the lecture Scott had an opportunity to speak with Dr. Rosentraub and learned that his presentation will focus on issues from a 30,000 foot level. In fact Dr.Rosentraub does not have any specific knowledge of the failed West Harbour location, he’s never been to Hamilton and has no context whatsoever when it comes to development in Hamilton



ANd good points from you, Earl. Looking at it on a broader level like that would make sense. BMO in my opionion, should be shared by TFC and the Argos. Is BMO used for anything else like soccer? Otherwise, isn’t it sort of a waste? How many home games are in a soccer season?


Thanks for the heads up , Mark! :thup:

In anticipation of the lecture Scott had an opportunity to speak with Dr. Rosentraub and learned that his presentation will focus on issues from a 30,000 foot level. In fact Dr.Rosentraub does not have any specific knowledge of the failed West Harbour location, he’s never been to Hamilton and has no context whatsoever when it comes to development in Hamilton
But shouldn't they focus on the 30,000 fan level, instead of feet? :wink:

Is it possible to get some feedback here from you or Scott in regards to tonight's presentation?

Captain, I am glad you added "I think" because there is no way you or anyone else can prove this, I happen to believe the opposite. A stadium will breath new life support and passion for team and city, how its marketed and maintained beyond that will be the determining factor for long term success.

Agreed! :thup:

Yes, good that SM had the opportunity to speak with him prior to the talk.

While I agree just that as you say "A stadium will breath new life support and passion for team and city, how its marketed and maintained beyond that will be the determining factor for long term success", I do think, though, that there is room for growth for TigerCat games and the stadium location and design will enter into this along with the other factors you mention. Some people want parking lots, well lit, for their cars when they drive, others won't care about that if they drive and others won't care if they take public transit. I'm wondering what the biggest demographic is for potential future growth for the team and stadium?

The NHL will work anywhere in Hamilton, it has the "big" names with the big salaries and tailgating isn't really so much part of the hockey culture. The CFL is different, it doesn't or can't rely on the big names as much and huge media attention and other factors are very important. Heck, I remember reading an article once that said ownership seems to be a big issue with attendance at CFL games. In Canada for the NHL, no one seems to care who owns the team.

That would make it a 60,000 foot level, then :wink:

Earl I think splitting the diference is the only way, make all desires available. If we find the desired mode is transit add transit if road access is required build a road. This is why I lean towards CPR many more options IMHO.

With all the union jobs how many Hamiltonians actually work during the day?