What effect would an NFL team in Toronto have on the CFL?

Apocalypse for the CFL? Or could they peacefully co-exist?

If the CFL were on the verge of collapse, would you rather the league collapse or merge with the NFL (but they'd have to adopt NFL rules)?

What do you think would happen?

I don't know but the NFL should respect the CFL and territorial rights and not place a team within so many miles of an existing CFL franchise.

Anyways, with Ralph Wilson balking at Rogers' request for more games, it is evident that the Bills have grabbed some Canuck money and there is more value for their team and I think you're going to see a new downtown Buffalo stadium soon or somewhere between Buffalo and the Falls. The only thing that might change that is if somehow Toronto were to build a NFL football specific stadium soon and I don't see that happening. The Toronto experiment was a cash grab for the Bills, not a threat to move to Toronto as it's turning out. Might have been different had Rogers sold 30,000+ 5 year packages at the high prices at the beginning instead of around 8,000.

One other thing (too late to edit the above). I've been to both the Ralph and Rogers Centre many times for football and the Ralph beats the Rogers Centre hands down for football, it's a football specific stadium first, not a baseball one first like the Rogers Centre. If the Bills can't get much more for tickets at the smallish Rogers Centre, why in heck would they leave a better stadium they have now for an inferior stadium? No way. Toronto has to build a stadium first for the NFL to be really interested unless as I say, they can charge gold for seats at the Rogers Centre and get it. And they can't.

You're probably right.

The NFL probably requires concrete proof that Rogers has the financing and government clearance for an NFL level stadium to be built before the move.

But Ralph Wilson said he'd do everything he could to keep the Bills in Buffalo while he was alive. He's old and not looking so well and all of a sudden the Bills are making trips north of the border YEARLY....foreshadowing?

Seems a bit too coincidental.

But let's imagine for a moment that it DID happen. What would the effects be on the CFL? Could they co-exist with the NFL only in Toronto?

Could they coexist? Who knows Matt. If the Argonauts played in a football specific stadium, BMO or otherwise, and have ticket prices significantly less than the NFL team, then yes, coexistence not a problem I would say. Just my thinking though.

The threat of the Bills moving to Toronto is so low now IMHO due to the more or less failure of the Toronto experiment as I mentioned. Rogers would be taking a huge chance if say Ralph passed on tomorrow and they “won” the bidding rights to the Bills and had to play out of the Rogers Centre for quite a few years. I don’t see how they could make enough money, they’d have to charge a lot for tickets and Toronto has shown, smartly I’d say, they aren’t willing to fork out that money for regular season NFL games in a more or less again baseball stadium. Risky.

If Toronto were to get an NFL team, the CFL would not survive that long in Toronto.

The interesting thing is figuring out what would be able to survive longer -- the CFL, or the NFL.

I believe that the CFL could survive as a 6-team league, without any teams in Ontario. I also feel that the league would find a way to adapt, rather than letting the traditions, and the unique brand of football die.

I can tell you one thing zbest that going to an Argo game at a stadium like Ivor Wynne or BMO at a lower cost than an NFL game at the Rogers Centre, baseball first stadium, at a higher cost is a no brainer to me, I'd be all over the Argos games. Granted, I'm a CFL fan first before an NFL fan but still.

There is no way any level of governemnt in this country would give any NFL team in Toronto one cent of public money to help build a stadium. Considering how governments have given our other leagues next to nothing to build a stadium.
And any government money should go to our own first, including the CFL.
We already built Toronto the Skydome. They don't like it, too bad.
And if the Argos didn't last in Toronto, move em to London.
Hamilton would survive.
Expand to Quebec and Halifax and Ottawa.
And the CFL would do just fine thank you without Toronto.
Which is why this league has to look to growing.
So that losing one team doesn't make a difference.
But I doubt the NFL in Toronot would kill the Argos.
They still draw close to 30,000 despite their negative image in the Toronto media.
And despite the NFL being only an hour away in Bufffalo.
How will the NFL coming effect things any differently?

Really, if you live anywhere in southern Ontario and want to take in an NFL game, if you don't go to either Buffalo or Detroit but want to go to Toronto at higher prices, you really do need to go see a shrink because everything ain't right up there, believe me. :lol:

The CFL would be in rough shape without Toronto, and the related TV contract. If they lost the Toronto market, the TV numbers would suffer, and so would the TV contract. The loss of the Toronto / Hamilton rivalry would likely drag Hamilton down enough for them to be in serious peril -- coupled with a reduction in the TV sponsorship from the league, and I doubt that they would be able to survive. The league would be in serious trouble and would need to re-invent itself and its image.

The NFL would only kill the Argos if it didn't kill itself first. The Argos would lose a lot of the corperate sponsorship that they do currently get, because a lot of those companies would be sponsoring the NFL team ( in order for them to get the NFL team to be there ). Toronto also has the most competative market for the sports entertainment dollar. Add a self-absorbed, power-hungry entity like the NFL into the mix, and the Argos take a hit at the gate as well. The Argo organization is either barely breaking even or bleeding a little now -- so if they lose sponsorship and audience -- they start bleeding more. It comes down to which ownership group is willing to hold on longer -- between the CFL and NFL in Toronto.

Thankfully -- it's a non-issue, because Toronto doesn't have an NFL calibre stadium. And the odds of building such a stadium in Canada .....

the toronto based NFL team would crumble at the feet of the Argos and the CFL.

The biggest mistake Rogers did, IMHO, was expose, if you will, the image of the NFL in Toronto at the Rogers Centre as a non-premium event. Man, when you go out on a limb like Rogers did with close to $100 mill, you better get it right. I guess it shows you just how much money Rogers Communications has because the $75 mill on these games really is about a drop in the bucket to these guys. They have money to burn, that's for sure.

Agreed.
Plus the federal government just like it threatened years ago, would enact legislation preventing the NFL from coming.

Considering that the two games played in TO thus far were both monumental failures from both the attendance stand point and a financial one, I'd say this is yet another (Oooohhhh the big bad NoFunLeague is coming) and should be moved to 'Football other leagues'.

Like I said before. I the Argos have survived going head to head with the Maple Leafs for the past 60 years, the NFL will be a peice a cake. And whose to say the NFL would even be successful in Toronto? If you look at baseball and the NBA, their impact has been minimal on the Canadian sports scene. Maybe toronto is more of a Canadian city then it would like to admit.

I think the NFL and CFL in Toronto can co-exist, but it will make things a little more difficult for the Argos than it will the CFL as a whole. It would be another source of competition for the entertainment dollar for the Argos. The area of most effect would be on the corporate sponsor dollars that the Argos generate. The Argos might lose some dollars to the NFL franchise in Toronto. But given that the CFL is a gate driven league, I don't think the Argos would be as hurt as others might think. The way I see the CFL vs NFL attendance is how I see the difference between the Vancouver Canucks and the Vancouver Giants. You don't see families attending the Canucks games the way you see families attending Giants games because of the affordability of the two options.

As for television advertising dollars, I may need a little help here. I watch the NFL on NFL Sunday ticket so I don't watch the Canadian feeds. But it seems to me that the NFL in Canada is shown as 1 game on Global, SNF on TSN, and MNF on TSN. So that would be 3 broadcasts in your typical week. The CFL has 4 broadcasts a week on TSN. I just don't see advertisiers such as Rona and Scotiabank who have this "proudly Canadian" feel to them jumping ship to NFL broadcasts. Other advertisers who would jump to NFL broadcasts if the NFL came to Toronto, whats really the added benefit to waiting until the NFL comes to Toronto over advertising now? One question I wouldn't mind having the answer to: does TSN get better audience ratings for CFL broadcasts than it does NFL ratings? I believe the answer to be yes.

I just wondering about an NFL preseason game being played in Vancouver? Anybody have any thoughts on why there is no talk of it happening?

I just wondering about an NFL preseason game being played in Vancouver? Anybody have any thoughts on why there is no talk of it happening?
The NFL will never come back to Vancouver. They played a American Bowl preseason game in Vancouver a couple of years back (Seahawks) and fell flat on their face, with about 25,000 empty seats, despite the organizers papering the crowd with free tickets. NFL games in Canada have been an embarrassment to the league. That's why Goodell dove for cover when the Bills fiasco was unfolding in Toronto, but is always on hand for international games in London, Tokyo or Mexico city.

In case you didn't hear (I doubt you'll be reading about this news story in the G&M or a column by Brunt), the NFL said NO to Toronto about hosting additional games in Canada.

An NFL team will be detrimental to the Argos in every way. For a very important part of the season (post-labour day), the NFL will increasingly take the media stage in TO, just when the important games and the playoff picture begins to clear. While the clientele each team will draw will be different (based mostly on price point IMO), I believe that sponsorship dollars will flow toward the team with the perceived highest return (which is the NFL in most demographics) and the team with the most money and sponsors will get the attention, right when that attention should be focused on the CFL and the Argos. If TorontoNFL outdraws the Argos, it will be even worse for the “better priced” alternative. I think that the CFL and NFL can coexist in the Toronto market, as long as the CFL understands “its place” vis-a-vis the two teams - and that place will not be the top team. I think its better to keep them out altogether!
LTF

Of course it's a Canadian city, and the denizens are fierce Canadians despite the vocal minority that whines about about how so much better the NFL is - they're usually just dupes of NFL propaganda. Once people actually GO to an NFL game they'll realize that it's not as thrilling as they were lead to believe, and certainly not as good a value as the CFL IMHO.