Ticats stadium business case focuses on location

[quote="ronfromtigertown"]The City is in some danger of losing the Pan AM Games stadium.

If we lose the Pan Am Stadium on the Rheem site, with no CFL football facility attached, that
would be a good thing.

The last thing we need downtown is another white elephant. :oops:

In other words, Ron, if we only stand to get a 15,000 seat stadium on that site, I'd rather have nothing,
unless, of course, it is expandable to 30,000 and then to 45-50,000 for Grey Cup games.

At this stage, I fear that we may lose the team. I doubt that this will happen, but it's a distinct possibility.
We have seemingly, immovable objects (people) at both ends of this now public debate.

Lets hope they find a way to protect a very large part of Hamilton's heritage. The fans deserve it.

If we lose all of this, Eisenberger and company should be on the first LRT or other transportation mode,
out of town. They should avoid the angry mob at all costs. :lol:

Fantastic read Spike. What people have to remember is that Hamilton doesn't matter much, to the CFL , to the NHL or any entertainment aspect of this country at all. If Fred wants Hamilton on the entertainment "happening" map, well guess what Fred, you got your work cut out for you bud. Good luck, you'll need it to succeed because right now, you gots some problems me friend if your trying to make Hamilton into some kind of "Toronto second". Not a happening.

Why doesn't Hamilton matter? Because it's turning into and already is to a large extent part of the GTA and a bedroom community of the Toronto scene and psyche. She's a going down that way any way you like to call it I'm afraid. Directed to you Fred, not Bob.

Look at me for example, I rarely go to the "big" concerts at Copps but go to Toronto to take in concerts for the more alternative groups at the Mod Club, Phoenix and Sound Academy. Yes, Casbah brings in some great groups too, will admit, and Hamilton the odd time with Metric and Sam Roberts and Joel Plaskett and such. But Toronto, I've seen groups like Turin Brakes, Editors and Echo and the Bunnymen recently that Hamilton doesn't have a chance in heck of getting. Which is fine, just saying going to a concert in Toronto is a minor issue, the traffic is bothersome but not much really. I don't need Hamilton for my entertainment aspect of my life because I live so close to Toronto. Get me Fred?

If a non-season ticket holder who has watched the odd Ticat home game on T.V. is thinking about going to a game

but he perceives that it's a big hassle to get to the stadium, he likely won't buy a ticket that day or any day.

See below

CFL Consultant Bernie Mullin*** who is careful not to comment specifically on stadium location,

said the key to expanding the Ticats' market beyond a 45-kilometre radius is "the driveway-to-driveway experience."

He said in order to compete with all the other diversions pulling at consumers, sports teams like the Cats need

to maximize the four- to five-hour football experience with ease of access by car and a jam-packed in-stadium experience.

Mullin can't imagine future generations of consumers dropping the car culture approach to major events.

...Mullin underscored something Ticat president Scott Mitchell has noted recently, that

pro sports teams compete against themselves by providing the product free on increasingly sophisticated TVs.

To counter that, explained Mullin, the ease of access to the stadium and value-added aspects

to the stadium experience become more important.

"We now have a "highlight generation" conditioned by TV to just see the slam dunks and spectacular plays."

He said the challenge for marketers is to match that somehow within the game experience

and that can be linked to stadium design.


Despite what anyone familar with the City says about how easy it is to access Ivor Wynne Stadium,

friends of mine from outside a 45 km radius from Ivor Wynne who are unfamiliar with Hamilton

find it hard to understand my simple[?] directions to navigate through the City to the stadium now,

and the Rheem site has exactly that same drawbacks as Ivor Wynne Stadium does.

*** Bernie Mullin of Atlanta-based The Aspire Group.

Mullin has been an executive with the NBA and held senior positions in pro baseball and hockey.

He has been helping the CFL develop ticket sales strategies in Toronto and Hamilton.


I remember living in London and decided to go to a game here in Hamilton for the first time, drove on my own and got lost in downtown Hamilton, had to ask directions to the stadium. Hassle city, west harbour wont be any better, it'll be the death knell of the TigerCats. Fred, Bob is telling you this to your face, in a nice way, get it or get out my man. Hamilton as an entetainment downtown city is a wash any way you cut it. On a large aspect that is.

Earl: C’mon buddy this is getting loopy.
Are you saying the West Harbour site would be difficult to find?
How helpless do you think people are? There will be buses to the site, parking, signs etc all around the area which is a hop, skip and a jump from Highway 403.
If anyone can find their way to Ivor Wynne I am sure they can find their way to the West Harbour. Never heard of Google maps? City maps?
If a stadium goes there you will able to see it if you are coming along the 403 from Burlington!

Well, it should be easier to find that IWS that much I agree and of course now with all the fancy finding gadgetry it won't be a problem. Fair enough. But so much easier if people don't have find their way inside of Hamilton. But this has been said many a time.
I just hope we get the stadium and Bob is happy, that's all. :?

Some out-of-town casual fans who are dying to go to a game may still go to a game
but a percentage of them will be turned off enough that they won't go, mr62cats.

I am not saying that out-of-towners are not intelligent or resourceful enough

to figure out how to get to off the highway into the downtown Rheem site.

I am saying that some of them would rather

get their own popcorn, hamburgs, and sausages on a bun ready

while waiting for the game to come on on their big screen T.V

than jump in theirs cars 60-90 minutes early if they have to face

the hassle of driving into downtown Hamilton, find a parking space

and walk to the stadium especially if the weather is less than ideal

even if it is simple to figure out just how to get to the Rheem site.

The more fans the Tiger Cats lose for that reason the less revenue
they bring in from ticket buyers and food and merchandise sales.

Ron and Earl:

Well I guess if there are enough of those "lazy" fans around the Cats won't make it no matter where they go.

No matter where you put a stadium someone will find something to complain about. It's too hot. It's too cold. I don't like the food. The beer is too expensive.My sister has a cold.
If IWS can draw 25-28 thousand people for a Labour Day game that gives me hope though.
But saying people won't go to a stadium to see a competitive Tiger-Cat team in a great location like the West Harbour because they can't find the place......is pretty lame.
Especially when the Caretaker is now saying it's more about the kind of business deal he can make than the location.

How is the Tiger-Cats the government's responsibility?

If caretaker can't make it work, then I blame the lack of fans, not the city. Does the owner not assume any repsonsibility for a failed business? Either he can't market the team properly, of it's a false market and free ecocomics runs its course, cuz we all know the taxpayers have been subsidising the Cats for along time now. The city has been doing more than their fair share.

Bottom line is, if more people paid for tickets we wouldn't be in the situation in which the city of Hamilton and Bob Young are both losing millions.

Cap'n: Absolutely. :thup:
But it's much easier for some people to demonize the Mayor than look at everything that has created this stadium fiasco.

If the mayor is being demonized, it's because of his failure to listen to anyone else's point of view. (something like you two)

Mr. Young has done a great job at marketing his football product in these parts, so don't blame him for the team's
financial losses. They are occurring because of our poor football venue that many folks stay away from because
it is so prehistoric and because it is set on a very difficult to locate site. (Easy for us, perhaps, but not for folks
from, say, out west.)

When IWS was built, it was actually on the city's outskirts, thereby making it easy for Hamiltonians and Torontonians
to find. This is why the Labour Day game has always been a sellout or close to a sellout.

Such is no longer the case. The Rheem site presents the same scenario. Lets learn from past mistakes.

Mr. Young is quite correct in saying he requires better visibility than the Rheem site can offer. (with or without
highway signage) (and of course, to get sponsorship for naming rights; a benefit to all of us.)

This is not about the site. It is about money and control. There is nothing cooler than a downtown stadium but it has to be done right. See Landsowne Live...

Spikewrote: “If the mayor is being demonized, it’s because of his failure to listen to anyone else’s point of view. (something like you two)”

Whoaaa. Hold on just a sec here Spike. Let me say for the umpteenth time…I support the Caretaker. But there are no players in this game who are 100 per cent right…given the cards they were dealt in the beginning.
Just think for a minute.
When the Mayor got elected he wanted to clean up some of the old industrial brownfields near the harbour and try to revive the downtown area.
When the pitch for some of the Pan-Am Games action was first made that same agenda was used by the city staff to convince the Pan-Am Committee to give Hamilton some of the action. The Pan-Am Committee agreed and awarded the city the stadium, velodrome and pool at the Rheem site…when those same facilities were already in place in Toronto! So they must have felt strongly about what the city was doing.
So what else was the Mayor supposed to back? His council had already voted in favour of the plan for the West Harbour too. Why would anyone be surprised at his position?
Unfortunately the Pan-Am committee did not involve the Caretaker at the planning stage and also underfunded the stadium project. Why should the Caretaker have been expected to pay 50 million (a third of the cost) up front to become a tenant? But that was the situation at the start of things. The Caretaker knew that and so did the Mayor.
You can argue all you want about communication, attitude and approach but both sides have been lacking there. Negotiations were underway. We were assured by Scott Mitchell that he was optimistic about a deal at the West Harbour despite some concerns. And the Mayor made his position clear.
Now at the 11th hour all that is off. The Caretaker has come up with a new shared partnership approach and the Mayor has agreed to listen, work with a mediator and maybe consider a new site.
I say good for both of them. They have tried to protect their own different interests in what has turned out to be a terrible financial requirement that was attached to the stadium deal in the first place…because it assumed the Caretaker would hop on board, full of gratitude, and without any problems.
So to demonize the Mayor as if all this mess is his doing, is to have a very narrow view of what has happened.
I have seen no indication that the Mayor wants anything other that a stadium in Hamilton that will be used by the Tiger-Cats profitably and beneficial to the city’s taxpayers. And despite a number of mixed messages from my hero the Caretaker, I really believe his goal in the end is exactly the same.
If anyone should be demonized it should be whoever doled out the money in the first place…for placing such a huge burden on the Caretaker as the main tenant to pay a third of the cost of the stadium. To meet a condition set by somebody else.
So when you say things like "“If the mayor is being demonized, it’s because of his failure to listen to anyone else’s point of view. (something like you two)”…you can see why I think your assessment of what has gone one here is so very shallow.

This is not about the site. It is about money and control. There is nothing cooler than a downtown stadium but it has to be done right. See Landsowne Live...

Yes Hf. The TigerCats don't need the Mayor or city of Hamilton, in fact they don't need to be around this area, they can move to Moncton, fold, merge whatever, I personally don't think the CFL really cares as I've said, what they care about is keeping one team in the Toronto-Hamilton area although closer to Toronto or in Toronto preferably which goes without saying, and perhaps really just want one team when you get down to it. The Mayor and the city need to throw a lot of goodies to Bob, they need the TigerCats much more than the other way around IMHO. The TigerCats give cheap advertising to this city on national TV, without the TigerCats they don't get that. What they'll get are lines from the boys on the TSN panel that the city wasn't able to do the job to keep the TigerCats in town, and that will add to the low image most have of Hamilton out there now in this country. It'll be "poor old Hamilton, can't get an NHL team and can't keep a CFL team."

I assume he thought the City would have enough common sense
to include their expected tenants, the Ticats as consultants.

I continue to find that bizarre.

If the City was afraid the Tiger Cats would come up with
an overwhelming business case against the Rheem site,

it would have been better to find that out in in camera
before presenting their case for the Rheem site to HostCo.

and also underfunded the stadium project.

Why should the Caretaker have been expected to pay 50
million (a third of the cost) up front to become a tenant?

Governments expected the City to get other private partners
to be a big part of the facility at the stadium not just the team.
Now at the 11th hour...

the Caretaker has come up with
a new shared partnership approach

A public/private partnership was always in the City's Plan
although little appears to have been done on that front.
and the Mayor has agreed to listen, work with [u]a mediator[/u] and maybe consider a new site.
Both sides agreed to work with a [u]facilitator [/u]actually, mr62cats]

Now, there will be an unbiased ear listening to both sides

The Tiger Cats have done a great deal of research
on successful business models and stadium facilities

I expect Michael Fenn to be impressed by their research.

They may bring out heavy artillery about location later.

The City has bought the Rheem factory, done soil tests
and purchased the homes of neighbouring homeowners.

This sports facility is going to be their building,
the Tiger Cats are only prospective tenants

Has the City researched the designs of
currently successful stadium facilities?

or decided on a business model
to operate the stadium with?

If they aren't really sure of kind of stadium facility
that would be economically sustainable there

I doubt they have any serious investors as partners.

The city of Hamilton thinks their downtown or anywhere near their downtown is "hot stuff" for real estate investing.

That's the biggest joke I've heard in a long time. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

Fred, you have to understand, it's not a happening my friend, just isn't there I'm afraid. Hamilton is small time stuff, just the way it is.


The Tiger Cats 36-page business case which they presented to the city

holds out a model based on the financial structure of Toronto's BMO Field

and the look and siting of PPL Park, another
soccer stadium just outside of Philadelphia.

From wikipedia

PPL Park is a soccer-specific stadium that is currently under construction.

It is the planned home of Philadelphia Union, a Major League Soccer club,
and the Philadelphia Independence of Women's Professional Soccer.

The project is the result of combined commitments of $30 million from
Delaware County and $47 million from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

It's partially covered $120-million stadium would seat 18,500 for soccer and 26,000 for concerts.
But it is the location in Chester, Pa just south of Philadelphia that [the Ticats] club likes most.[ like Confederation Park? ]

It is near Interstate 95 and adjacent to a bridge across
the Delaware River connected to a major thruway from New Jersey.

It is approximately 1 mile from the Highland Avenue and Chester Transportation Center [commuter train] stations.
[b] was designed to be a catalyst for economic development on the waterfront[/b],

with additional plans calling for a riverwalk

[ a walking path along a river passing
patios a the back of restaurants]

amidst other entertainment, retail, and residential projects.

The recent master plan for our waterfront seems have enough attractions
planned that it doesn't need a stadium on the south side of the railway tracks.

Hamilton is lucky they have the TigerCats, but Fred doesn't quite "get it" I'm afraid. Fred, do you know what Hamilton is about? Nothing, that much, it's a nice city, lots of escaprment stuff and some waterfront but it's got the steel town dirty image.

You're lucky a Bob Young Internet guy decided to be nice to you and keep the TiCats going. Get it, buddy Fred? Even little ol London gets a packed 9000 each game, 40 games for the little ol' OHL. Yikes, Fred, if you don't land this stadium, Hamilton is a nothing city. Go to it my man, you have your work cut out for you.

The question isnt' can you compete with Toronto and get an NHL team, the question is can you even compete with little ol' London? Yikes! :x :x :x

Ron wrote: " Both sides agreed to work with a facilitator actually, mr62cats"

       Ron:  Mr Fenn has also been referred to as a mediator because a mediator can be a facilitator and vice versa.

Some examples from the Spec:

-"Mitchell said the Ticats are willing to chip in for a mediator "if it meant a thorough and transparent process."

  • "Though the mayor said the city had been "kicking around a few names" for a third-party mediator, he said it's too early to mention any names."

  • "Toronto-based Igor Ellyn, a chartered mediator with 37 years of legal experience, said mediation can cost upwards of $500 to $600 an hour. Many mediators, who act as detached referees to get to the heart of each party's needs, have a legal background and will charge the same rates as high-ranking lawyers.
    In this case, the mediator needs to be familiar with professional sports, city building and policies, and command the respect of both sides.
    The mediator first has to be informed about the facts, and then has to have a good ear to listen to each side's proposals -- but then also has to be tough," Ellyn said.
    Typically, mediation involves a combination of meetings that involve all parties and closed-door sessions with each side. That way, the mediator can ensure he or she has the full story while ensuring that cooler heads prevail."

I know Bob Young referred to a faciliator so in the interests of consistency I will do the same.
Happy? :slight_smile: