Don't listen to the dude posting stuff from Raise the Hammer....Do your own researchIt's fair enough to say "Do your own research", as long as people aren't being bullied or blackmailed. Bob Young has provided zero evidence that his suburban 1950s dinosaur stadium will make money and not cause environmental problems in a city already sprawling and prone to flooding. For instance. Who is paying for the 40 million dollar parking lot that he wants. You and me, and then we get to pay $20 to park there when we go. That's a good deal! Since they have no evidence they are resorting to emotional blackmail tactics such as "East Mountain or no team". That is pathetic and makes me nostalgic for Harold Ballard!
It is not only RTH that has come out in favour of the W. Harbour. It is also the Architects Association, Doctors, McMaster Student's Union, Hamilton Halton Homebuilders Association, Hamilton-Burlington Realtors Association, Downtown BIA, City Council (although wavering because the issue has been complicated by the Ti-Cats).
Who is in favour of the East Mountain? Bob Young, the CFL, and the guy from Carmen' s Banquet Hall. These snake oil salesman need to watch their step. I love the institution of the Ticats as much as you, but saying we need them is absoulutely untrue. Economic analysis of the benefits of sports teams indicate that their average contribution is 1/10th of 1 % of the local economy.
they say a west harbour stadium will revitalize downtownNo one is saying that. Stadiums lose money period. That is a fact regardless of sport, city or country. If you want to build them, then you have to put them in an area that has the greatest economic spin off potential. The East Mountain has zero spin off potential, while the West Harbour has many amenities nearby that would benefit: shops, restaurants, hotels, etc.
The Ticats are welcome to build wherever they want. If you want my money, then I'll tell you where it goes. Otherwise, take the team to a city that is willing to give you what you want.
[quote="Blogskee Wee Wee"]Spot on. It will be Copps Coliseum all over again.[quote]
Wow, that's a ridiculous statement too. I guess a history lesson is in order. Copps Coliseum was built in 1985 on the overly optimistic premise of attracting an NHL team. Ottawa was chosen for a franchise instead of Hamilton in 1990. The Leafs used their backroom veto to deny Hamilton a team, said in so many words by Ron Joyce. In 2009, Jim Balsillie commissioned research on the feasibility of an NHL team at a renovated Copps. The results were that it would be a home run. Again, the Leafs used their unofficial veto to deny Hamilton a team. All the sycophantic slags came out in support of Jim's cause. No one dared question the mighty RIM boss on parking issues, and accessibility of a downtown stadium. It's easy to say, in hindsight, that it was wrong to build Copps. But if the coyotes were playing there this fall, the 25 years of subsidies on an underused arena would have been quickly forgotten.
Thanks. I'm pretty sure you were excluded from the "dingbat" reference.
I've never heard of a parking lot losing money before. Particularily those by venues which are well situated and busy. Ok so it costs say $20M for this parking lot right? Being conservative lets say $5 to park at a game, 10 games in a season and say 12000 cars that is $600,000 just for the Ti-Cats. Now I doubt that they'd be the only people there and I doubt parking would only be $5. $10 is more reasonable. So, if its $10, its paid off in 17 years assuming nobody else would be using the stadium.
Also, I dare say Bob Young knows a lot more about business than anybody here or any of the beaurocrats. Proof? How many of us or them are billionaires? People don't get that rich by having a bad business plan.
The Commissioner's letter was bang on. Why would anyone complain about knowing the truth, unless they are pushing the downtown stadium for some reason?
The fact is the Ti-Cats have poor fan support and the team loses millions every year. If Bob Young doesn't continue to prop up the team, football is dead in Hamilton. No new investor is going to buy the Ti-Cats to lose money in perpetuity, and the team can't make money at Ivor Wynne.
The Ti-Cats also believe they can't make money at the proposed downtown stadium. There will be little signage, naming rights or parking revenue downtown, keeping the franchise as a money-loser. No owner will accept losing money forever, there needs to be some hope they can at least break even in the future. This can only be accomplished with a new stadium where the naming rights can be sold, where there is parking and signage revenue, and it can be expanded comfortably to 45,000 for Grey Cup games. Without these elements there can be no professional football in Hamilton.
I suspect the whiners who are criticizing Mr. Young, the Ti-Cats and the CFL are not true football fans, but shills for the Mayor who is pushing the downtown stadium. I suspect the Mayor has made secret concessions to out-of-town investors and money has already changed hands, and he is sweating bullets. Why would anyone be so adamant that the stadium be built on that cramped toxic waste dump on the waterfront? The Mayor and his shills are frantic in their push for the West Rheem site. What have they to gain? Real football fans should be happy to locate the stadium anywhere the Ti-Cats can be successful.
The Ti-Cats are the only legitimate tenant for the new stadium. If it doesn't work for the team, then it should not be built at all. I am sure that Mr. Young has no interest in moving the team to another city, he is not in this for the money. His only goal is to make the Ti-Cats successful in Hamilton and secure their future with a new stadium which can generate the necessary revenues to keep the team in the city.
If a satisfactory stadium arrangement cannot be accomplished in Hamilton, then the team will be mothballed and football will be dead in Hamilton.
Yes, you're estimate is not far off. I think the numbers from Deloitte on parking spaces was 14 mil for 3000 spots, which takes our EM stadium to 28 mil for the 6000 spots Bob wants. Bob is only offering 15 million to the stadium precinct, whatever and wherever that means. The cost of a Grey Cup ready stadium is somewhere around 100 million I believe (correct me if I'm wrong on that). How would it be paid off if the Ticats are collecting the parking revenue and only paying 3 million a year in rent (30 million offered for 10 years of operating costs)? The rest of the money is coming from the Province and the City for building, interest, and legacy maintenance costs. Your are also ignoring the external costs of building a parking lot; ie, maintenance, snow removal, and or repairs, or highway interchanges to handle all the cars, not to mention flooding of mine and my neighbours houses as we pave over acres of green fields at the top of a watershed area.
Bob Young is not the authority on where the stadium should go. Proof? How many football teams does he own that make money? None. People get rich by taking risks. I have no problem with that, but if this is such a sure thing, then pony up the 100 million yourself, and shoulder the burden of risk yourself! Jim Balsillie is also a billionaire, but he never came looking for a government handout nor did he dictate to council how we should build or spend our own money.
Dave, stop for a second and think ok? You are arguing against an entire forum of people with the opposite view of yours. What are you trying to accomplish here? Change all of our minds? Really? You've made it pretty obvious you really don't care a whole lot about the team so why are you even on a CFL forum?
this dave guy is clearly someone with a vested personal interest in seeing the stadium on the westside. Either a member of the council or a local business person caring only about what puts money in his own pockets or the pockets of his cronies. As since, he will spin the BS as much as he can. Probably doesnt know a football from a meteorite
That's quite possible but if he is trying to put a spin on things, he is certainly talking to the wrong audience. He'd have better luck getting somebody Winterpeg to get the Rider's logo tattooed on them.
I am a football fan in Hamilton. I have held season tickets for many years and I completely agree with what Dave is saying.
While the majority of forum posters on the Ti-Cats site seem to support EM, there remains a sizable group arguing for the WH site.
Dave is not arguing against the ‘entire’ forum.
If the owner and president of your team tell you one site is better than another, why on earth would you oppose that?
I'm not connected to city council and I have absolutely no financial interest in the west harbour. I am a private citizen concerned about the financial costs of subsidizing a stadium when there are no spin-off benefits for the city. For those of you outside of Hamilton, you should know that our city taxes are among the highest in Ontario due to shrinking commercial tax revenues and exploding infrastructure costs. We probably cannot afford this stadium. I'll admit that I'm not the biggest football fan (football v. meteorite - i lol at that), but I go to a lot of Tiger Cat games because I love my town and I admire the athleticism of the players in this league. I would hate to lose the Tiger Cats since I grew up with it, had two immediate family members drafted by the Cats, and because of the excitement and memories at Ivor Wynne Stadium. Hell, I hugged complete strangers in the stands when Hamilton came back to tie the game in the Eastern semi-final last year.
I am not here to argue against a whole forum but to bring another perspective. I don't think Bob Young is evil, but he is not being completely transparent. Bob said he would play wherever the city chose to build, and at the last second changed his tune and is now threatening us. That is completely against the spirit of dialogue and is not at all productive. Of course his cronies are going to fall in line (Mitchell, Cohon et al.). They are on the payroll and have no choice. If Bob wants to build the stadium on the East Mountain, then he can go ahead and do so without city funds, since we cannot afford to have it there when there is no benefit to the city.
Enjoy the season
All the Best, Dave
(Love the Cats, Love Hamilton even more)
Dave, I'll tell you what is agains't the spirit of dialogue - the Mayor not telling anyone that he was negotiating with Katz, if you're going to take this argument where it is.
Also, new information can make people change their minds about where they'll play. Have you ever changed your mind once you've received new information? I know I have and likely you have as well. Bob has every right like any human being to change his mind as well regardless of what he said. Like all of us. I can say I hate apples. But then someone gives me an apple I never tried before and voila, I can say I like certain kinds of apples.
I don’t believe contraction is an option here… the league cannot survive with 7 teams… the franchise is more likely to be moved to another city rather than fold. Maybe a referendum on which site to build on needs to be held… let the people decide.
regarding so called spin off benefits. Is hamilton a shrinking city, a growing city, or just stagnant? I dont know how far out the ticats want the stadium, but would not a person of vision see the city grow around the stadium and end up getting those spin-off benefits in the future, and in the long run, be better off??
Hamilton is a growing city, we've already eaten up a few of the small communities around us.
You may be right about the discussion with Katz presenting a conflict. He could have handled this better. And yes, people can change their minds when the facts change (to paraphrase John M. Keynes). The fact that suburban stadiums are economic black holes for cities has not changed and the west harbour site isn't any more or less viable now then it was when Bob was on board with it. I think he is getting some bad advice on how to deal with the public.
To the person from Delta BC... Hamilton is in a transition economically from manufacturing to education/research and health care, but pop. growth is more or less stagnant. This is a critical time for us to make decisions that will have positive impacts for years to come. Provincial Growth Strategy in Ontario is focussed on intensification and limiting sprawl. Building out around the stadium is not in our long term interests, since we don't have the commercial tax base of a Toronto or Vancouver. This isn't just about building a stadium, it's about building a city.
Why should I listen to one particular group when there are countless reputable organizations that have endorsed the downtown site?
I don't doubt that the EM site bodes best in medium term financial sense for the Tiger-Cats... I don't think it is in the best interest of the city especially when there is so much more development at stake.
I've recently travelled across Canada from St.John's to Tofino and Hamilton has the worst downtown of major cities by far. There are over $100 million public dollars available immediately as a catalyst for downtown redevelopment.
A Tiger-Cat contribution of $15 million over 10 years for a suburban stadium is SQUAT... They cannot dictate the location of this stadium.
Make no mistake.. I passionately love and support Canadian football... I love my Tiger-Cats as a symbol of Hamilton..
City council in Hamilton can and very well might actually proceed with the Pan-Am soccer stadium without the CFL or Tiger-Cats... Say all you want about Hamilton needing the Ti-Cats more than vice versa but we've already seen multi-million dollar commitments to soccer from the likes of MLSE and Eugene Melnyk where only acts of philanthropy have saved the CFL in Southern Ontario (see Bob Young and David Braley). Soccer in Hamilton can come from many other parties not associated with Bob Young.
Where is this CFL team going to go if the stadium ends up in WH? A market slated for expansion?? The league isn't giving up on 10 teams so easily and the Ti-Cats do not have the means to build a stadium elsewhere...
The Tiger-Cats will play where the stadium is built... the stadium will be built where dictated by the highest stakeholders... that is the city of Hamilton represented by their elected aldermen and alderwomen...
The community of Hamilton and public tax contributions take precedence over the absolute ideal scenarios desired by the private football team... I firmly believe there exists an arrangement that will leave the Tiger-Cats profitable in resurgent downtown.
I also think misinformation emanates from all ends... including the immaculate Bob Young and his minion Scott Mitchell.
I don't understand how these two have come off squeaky clean in the eyes of football fans while the mayor and council have been painted as evil when each side is pleading for their ideal outcome?
This looks like a interesting game of poker.
Only question is who has the flush and who's stuck holding king high.