So far almost every caller to the Jamie West show on CHML agrees that Fred needs to give his head a shake...........and overwhelmingly agree with Bob and the Tiger-Cats....and think the West Harbour is a stupid location
As an outsider, an old man, and one who will probably never see another Ticat game live, allow me to give a few thoughts.
The mayor seems to forget that every city has a soul. Toronto used to have one, but has grown so large that the soul disappeared. Or maybe it has been diluted into a multitude of smaller souls, each located in various ethnic communities.
Hamilton still has one, and the Tiger-Cats have, for many years, been a huge part of that. I don't care how many, or how few, people put their butts into seats on game day. I personally don't care where the stadium is located, so long as the TV cameras are still operating.
But the mayor should care, and he should care about the view of the Tiger-Cats, and Caretaker. Because long after various mayors have come and gone, the Tiger-Cats will still be a huge part of the soul of Hamilton.
Wilf, spoken with the wisdom of experience and age :thup:
Nice post Captain… Seems odd that these things have not been locked down as of yet.
I'll second that Mat about what Wilf says. And add also that while we can't predict exactly the future the TigerCats, should they at some point move to another locale or ease to exist altogether, that the soul of this team will live on regardless.
Bob,
Thank you for your post and for clearly stating your position concerning the West Harbour location. I agree, in part ,with your statement concerning elected politicians. They have my appreciation for their efforts and sacrifices but not necessarily my respect. They must earn the voters’ respect by carrying out their responsibilities in a reasonable and responsible manner in the best interests of ALL parties concerned. In this case, I do not believe the Mayor has met that requirement.
You have made it clear that the Tiger Cats, as primary tenant, cannot be financially viable in a 20,000 seat stadium at the West Harbour location and have stated the reasons for your position. Without responding to your specific concerns, the Mayor insists on forging ahead with a project that seems destined to become an ongoing financial burden to tax payers going forward. I cannot see how that constitutes “community building” by any reasonable definition.
I hope there is still time to reach a compromise, because, in the end, the Tiger Cats cannot allow themselves to be forced to operate in a location that virtually guarantees continual annual multi-million dollar loses. I would not expect any businessman, philanthropic or otherwise, to submit to that.
The big issue that I have with the Mayor is that he keeps saying that it will be a community stadium and it's for the community.
Who the hell uses the stadium? The Cats, minor football, high school football and it gets rented the odd time for soccer. A new stadium (with a track) would attract a couple track and field events and probably some high school track meets.
To me, that's hardly a community stadium. There is a very very very very small portion of the city that will use the stadium for athletics.
The Cats will be the main tenant. Even though they play 10 games per year, they are the biggest rented and draw the biggest crowds.
A West Harbour can't have concerts as the noise bylaws would be in effect and I'm sure the residents down there don't want to hear it.
Putting a stadium in another residential area is just a recipe for disaster. If you are going to do that, just revamp Ivor Wynne and tear down Brian Timmis for parking and tear down Scott Park, put in your 200,000 sq ft of retail.
Bob Bratina really opened up my eyes yesterday on For The Record
-65 ft down there is quick sand
-a company walked away from a job because of the quick sand
-no one knows if a stadium can really be built on the land
-soil testing has just started
-the cleanup costs of the land is still unknown
-the residents down there don't support the stadium
All of this is the opposite of what the Mayor says. I tend to believe Bratina more because he actually lives there and he talks to his voters.
Bob:
Thanks for your perspective. It sounds like the level of frustration has reached the point where some outside perspective, like a mediator is needed. Essentially both sides are accusing each other of negotiating in less than good faith (City accuses Ti-Cats of not putting up real money, Ti-Cats accuse City of being less than forthcoming about their plans).
Ultimately, I think the City is in the driver’s seat here. They appear to be ready to go ahead with or without the Ti-Cats. That shouldn’t be a big surprise, they are a tenant with maybe 50,000 supporters, and they occupy the facility for only 10 (maybe 11) days per year. The City, on the other hand, is accountable to 500,000 constituents for 365 days per year.
I think the bottom-line is this (this is what I guess to be the City’s perspective): if the stadium is built at Red Hill and the QEW, its impact on city renewal is guaranteed to be essentially zero. If it goes to the Rheem site, then there is at least the potential for there to be an impact on city renewal (although I acknowledge the actual impact could be far less than the potential impact if the City screws it up).
And it’s very difficult to justify spending public money on a stadium with almost zero potential impact on city-building over one with > 0 potential.
I really hope that both sides will enter into mediation immediately and come up with a way for this site to work for the Ti-Cats, instead of finger-pointing about who is to blame for the current state of dialogue.
red24
I've always had a great respect for Bob Bratina, to me he seems to always have Hamilton's best interests at heart with no hidden agenda.
Quicksand is a big issue, if this is true it puts not only the construction crew at risk during the probable construction of this stadium but also any viewers or athletes using the facility..This is a big issue..20,000+ fans is a lot of weight and one slip in the foundation could mean death.
In my opinion the facility should be built as a multi-use facility so that the city can maximize profits and quickly pay back that debt..outdoor concerts for example I think would be a big draw which definitely cannot happen at the Rheem site due to the proximity to a residential neighborhood.
This needs to be looked at, The Mayor seems to be turning a blind eye to the Ti-Cats and Mr.Young in order to fulfill a hidden agenda, maybe its time to get the public involved and perhaps get behind Mr.Bratina's concerns and push for a 90 day freeze so that all avenues can be explored..late or not, this city cannot afford the tragedy or embarrassment that could stem from a blunder like building a stadium on quicksand.
red24, good post.
There's more to this that 'just' the stadium site and the Tiger-Cats viability (both of which are very imporatant).
There's the whole angle of $60m of future fund, a total public expenditure of well over $100m and its public purpose. How can one justify spending that on a "highway mall" like development?
There's got to be a way to mesh the two interests here.
Hidden agenda?
He’s been very public about the agenda. Urban renewal, city building, brownfield remediation, increase use of public transit etc,. ete, etc,. now agree or disagree all you want about the issues, but one thing this is NOT is a hidden agenda.
That public agenda has wide spread support for its potential for its public and private contributions to the city. The intent is quite worthy and honorable.
Good post, Kirk. I think it would be great if this was placed even closer to downtown. My only real beef with the West Harbour is that I still think it’s a bit removed from the city-centre, but makes up for it with proximity to the rail line.
I still think there’s a way that the Ticats can reap parking revenues in city-lots on gamedays. It just doesn’t seem like that big of a deal.
I’m hesitant to buy into the whole ‘access’ argument either. I’ve been to Copps on a number of occassions when there have been 18,000 (including a higher percentage from outside Hamilton) and I really haven’t found it more or less difficult than anywhere else to access. The only exception was the Canada vs. Slovakia World Junior exhibition game – the snowstorm had the exit ramp from the 403 backed up. This sort of issue would only be exacerbated by a location right off the highway.
I’m also hesitant to buy into the visibility for naming rights argument. I would just like to see the difference between naming rights on a highway versus non-highway. I’m pretty sure I could find that out by heading over to the media department and seeing what a QEW superboard would be worth for the year. Stadium rights are purchased for the on-air mentions and PR/ Press received – as well as the positive associations. (Can anyone see the Gatorade Garden City Arena from the Highway? Or the RBC Centre in Sarnia? Or the Sleemans Centre in Guelph? Or the John Labatt Centre in London? Or the GM Centre in Oshawa?)
Anyway, I hope some additional clarity can be provided from both sides. And, likewise, I hope both sides are willing to work with each other so that all objectives can be acheived.
Thank you very much Mr. Young for posting here.
As you can tell by my signature I am very much in support of the West Harborfront location, mainly due to the economic spin-off effect it would have for the downtown core and the image it will project for the city as a whole due to Bayfront Park. It is the exact reason I vehemently oppose Confederation Park as a potential site, given the lack of nearby commercial spinoff and proximity to the heavy industrial sector of Hamilton and the Woodward septic plants. I have had several bad experiences in this area, and frankly feel it would damage the city's credibility as a whole.
I also do not feel that any Aldershot location is wise, especially given the fact the Hamilton side of Aldershot consists of environmentally sensitive lands protected by the Royal Botanical Gardens and any location adjacent to Highway 6 is severely lacking in commercial development once more for any positive spin-off effect. You also have to consider that the city will not be keen on building a stadium in the Burlington side of Aldershot, given any revenue would be out of their jurisdiction. Truly, some clarification as to where this suggested site could be would be appreciated, if possible.
I would be open to a site at Chedoke Golf course, assuming that adequate environmental renewal occurred to make up for the loss of green-space. However, these lands are protected by the Niagara Escarpment Commission and it is unlikely that they will be available to be redeveloped. I would however support this location. I sincerely wish Kay Drage Park was a possible site, as would have all the benefits of the West Harborfront, with the gain of highway access. Unfortunately Hamilton Cemetery prevents any such building at this location.
I do appreciate all you have done for Hamilton and the Tiger-Cats, and if you are still considering bringing a USL franchise to the city, I would gladly support it. As it stands I sincerely hope honest dialog can be opened between the city and the cats to find a way to make the West Harborfront work. I am glad for the understanding you are showing regarding the mayor's position, and as a taxpayer would gladly see the cats be further subsidized or partly owned by the city itself if such an option is available. If you have read this post, thank you.
I wonder why the naming rights to Copps have never been sold? Even without a so called major tenant I d think some Corporation would snap that up for a steal.
Nothing adds up here and nothing seems to make sense for down town Hamilton. Could it simple be image?
All we need in the mix now is for Mr. Turkstra to iniate the legal procedures he said would come about with the selection of the Rheim site. Would make for a perfect week eh what?
Well downtown Hamilton or near there has the image to outsiders and even insiders in Hamilton of being not exactly what you’d call “the place to be”. Like IWS or a new west harbourfront stadium as Bob mentions, you couldn’t get a company to pay for the scaffolding just to put up the sign let alone paying millions for naming rights.
Neither is downtown Newark, Buffalo or Kansas City. Hell, the Sprint Centre is in the pretty mediocre, often unsafe, (albeit, improving) locale of downtown Kansas City – and they don’t have a tenant.
There are lots of dynamics when it comes to naming rights. One also has to remember that there’s the intangible cost to taking Vic Copps’ name off the building. Takes some stones by whoever makes that call – so that better be added to the cost-benefit analysis.
Might want to ask why The Palace of Auburn Hils and Joe Louis Arena haven’t had their rights sold either. There you have an example of an urban arena and a suburban/ highway accessible arena. Neither with a title sponsor. Word in Detroit is that the Piston’s could be abandoning the suburban Palace to share a new downtown arena with the Wings. Weird, eh?
My question is: is there no middle ground? Like Kirk said earlier, there might be an alternative relatively close to the downtown that will better suit the needs of both the Cats AND the purpose of Urban renewal. My problem with Eisenberger's plan is the stadium is simply not big enough and is being built piecemeal. These kinds of projects always end up fizzling out, and we might end up with a 15 k stadium that isn't of any use to ANYONE.
Do it right the first time or don't do it at all Fred.
Mr. Young, while I don't agree with everything you have said, I can agree with the sentiment of you not being in the business of running a football team to lose money. While I'm not entirely sure you're that far in the red right now, in a 20-25 k stadium you most certainly would be, especially if street access was limited.
If you want Fred to change his mind you should organize some sort of collective action -- like a rally -- to show Mayor Fred just how many people disagree with his proposal. Just a thought.
caretaker bob said
While we have attempted to work with the City on their proposed West Harbour location
there have been no credible attempts to financially analyze the economics of either the Cityor the Tiger-Cats running a successful business from that site.
The City is so adamant to gain even a little economic spill over effect for the downtown
by locating the future home of the Tiger Cats at the Rheem site near the West Harbour
that they didn’t do a thorough analysis, to find out if they could run a
15,000 seat stadium only facility without a primary tenant successfully,
completely boggles the mind.
They knew from their own Deloitte report that to be successful there
a commercial/stadium complex of up to 250,000 square feet was needed.
and that require $50,000,000 million dollars from developers
and other investors which the City of Hamilton doesn’t have.
That they didn’t financially analyze whether the Tiger Cats
could survive running a CFL team there doesn’t surprise me.
The downtown location would be a good idea, and I mean in the downtown core. If they really want to re-vitalize the downtown, than why not in the core itself? Build it in a location where accessibility is no problem via car, rapid transit or whatever. The stadium could be a vocal point for people coming from major roadways from the east/west/north and south.
As I see it, the only reason Mayor Fred and his “visionary” councillors want to build it at the Rheem site is to have the province help in the clean-up of the toxic mess that was left behind.
What they can do is level the Rheem area and cap the site with clay making it into a park
brox