The All-24

After reading this in the WSJ, I am wondering if the same applies in the CFL. Who gets the "all-24". Would you watch it if you could?

I'd love to watch a game like this. I think I would learn a ton about formations, some of which frankly confuse me, and the clipped view we get on TV often seems inadequate.

SIMPLE, the guys who produce the game on TV know the actual on field product itself isn't that good.

they need to produce and create something that wows and excites the viewer because if they were to show it in a non creative way then you'd see how the actual on field product is poor.

why do you think we hardly see any highlights of the game on the sports channels doing their nightly wrap up? majority of the game that is seen on tv you could sleep through and see the scoring plays.

especially those 9-6 games. WOW... :roll: if you compare a CFL game and an NFL game, the CFL game goes faster and you get more plays in per half then you would an NFL game.

plus the good ole 2 minutes at the end of the game where they kneel down a few times and walk off the field with a minute to go.

if there is one rule the NFL should change it's the timing. they should have to run a play at 0:00. none of this bs where when the clock hits zero you are done, whether or not you have another play to run.

it's the dumbest of all the dumb rules in the NFL and there are lots.

I won't argue with that. Though I'm not sure what it has to do with seeing footage of all 24 players on the field so I can study the schemes and see the breakdowns. I'm just wondering if the same policy applies in the CFL. Surely coaches have it available to them; maybe it could be available here if there was a demand for it. It'd be cool for TSN2 to show that view for example.

This would have been true about 30 years ago, but it isn't close to the truth now. NFL games are full of excitement, and I would bet there is a higher per-game scoring average than the CFL, and more offensive plays in an NFL game. The CFL has changed a number of its clock rules over the years (for instance, the clock actually runs on converts, which is completely dead time 999 times out of 1,000). As a result, fewer plays get run in a game. It used to be that CFL teams averaged around 60-65 offensive plays per game, now I believe it's more like 50-55. As for all the 9-6 NFL games, there just aren't that many of them. In many ways the NFL has become what the CFL used to be -- a high-scoring game built on the pass and not the run. I still love the CFL, but it has lost many of its advantages in terms of entertainment value as the NFL has adopted CFL practices such as spread formations, five-packs, and so on. The NFL used to be a running back's league; now it, at least as much if not moreso than the CFL, is a QB's league.

so you're saying the NFL is adapting to the CFL's better system!?

always knew it would happen sooner or later.

There are still serious timing issues, particularly in the last two minutes of the half. With so many time outs plus TV timeouts the pace of the game can slow to a glacial crawl. I'd like to see some stats about the number of offensive plays before I comment on that. It's often the case in the CFL that there are offensive plays down to the last few seconds, whereas in the NFL it's not uncommon to see a team run out the clock with a over a minute to play. That can stifle many plays and a lot of excitement. And don't get me started about the increased number touch backs on kick offs.

It's difficult to find a true, meaningful comparison because the leagues reports stats differently and I'm not convinced that the stats posted on cfl.ca represent every single play in the season. For instance, in the 2009 sack stats on cfl.ca, the lowest total listed for any individual is two sacks -- I find it hard to believe that there was not a single player who recorded only one sack that year.

Nonetheless, here is a comparison for 2009 I put together based on stats posted on cfl.ca and http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game

CFL: 55.1 offensive plays per game (passes+rushes+sacks, which were obviously offensive snaps; this does not include plays resulting in penalties that negated the play)

NFL: 62.9 offensive plays per game (no methodology given by the site mentioned above so I don't know what this figure includes but presume it is passes+rushes+sacks)

So if these stats are to be believed, in 2009 there were on average almost eight more offensive plays in an NFL game than in a CFL game. I have no way of checking this but I used to look at CFL statisics very closely in the 1980s, and my strong recollection is that CFL teams back then combined for 60-65 offensive plays (passes+rushes) per game on average.

ya but then you need to dig deeper, look at the type of plays that are run.

what percentage of those plays in the NFL are 4 yd dives, and 6yd passes, and spikes?

how often in the NFL do they use up 3 of the 4 downs to get the first down?

now compare that to the CFL,

same thing.

what is the percentage of plays that are short yardage plays and what perentage is the 20-25 yd type plays on 1st down..

etc etc.

I'm not going to say that all NFL teams do this or whatever.

but i'm sure a large percentage of NFL teams when they're running their offense the plays are not designed for big yardage.

the NFL is a time of possession league. they want to try to run as many plays as they can and use up as much time on the clock at the same time. It's all about how long can you have the football for?

their timing rules play into that.

think about this, if the NFL decided that in 2012 they would now require that a team cannot simply walk off the field with 45 seconds to go that they must run a play if the clock runs down to zero and the referee places the ball and whistles time in before it gets to zero, this would totally change the way that a lot of Offenses prepare for games.

because now if you have the ball and there's 50 seconds left and it's 3rd down, you snap and take a knee. you can't just walk off and la de da.. you will be forced to punt the ball away on 4th down. or the the opponents will then begin to save 1 time out for that purpose to make sure a team punts it.

Timing rules in the NFL are possession based. CFL timing rules are not.

in the CFL, in order to win the game in the final 3 minutes where it is stop time, you need to successfully get a first down in order to maintain the ball and not allow your opponent to have a chance to score.

NFL rules on many levels are ridiculous anyways.

like how the hell can you have a Defensive Pass Interference call on a Defender, when the ball is caught. have the first down at the point of the tackle, PLUS add on 10 yards to it?

in the CFL you cannot have both. you either take the catch and decline the penalty or you take the penalty, move it up 10 yds or to the 1 and the catch or incomplete pass is void.

just like defensive Holding, you gain 8 yards on the run, defense gets holding (the wording is atrocious) so instead of them going 1st and 5 or decline and go 2nd and 2.

they give you the 8 yards and also tack on the yardage for the penalty, basically making it a first down.

the whole rule book in the NFL is just retarded.

it's not logical to give your offense the yardage you gained plus add on the yards for the penalty.

you can't have both, 1 or the other. but in the NFL I guess you get both, which is stupid!

All that stuff about defensive holding penalties and so on is beside the point of this thread, which is essentially about whether or not the NFL is a more boring product than the CFL. The suggestion that the NFL runs a lot of dull plays intended to not gain many yards is erroneous, IMO. Sure, ball control is part of the strategy at times (with some teams more than others) but the NFL has become a high-powered passing game. Here is what I wrote in a thread here a few weeks ago:

[i]The days when the NFL was three yards and a cloud of dust and the CFL was two offences passing the ball 45-50 times each are over. Nowadays, I would wager that the run-pass ratio is fairly similar in the two leagues.

Here's what Sports Illustrated wrote recently:

In 1990, NFL teams threw an average of 483 times a season. That number rose to 540 in 2010. "We're never going back to a running game," says Texans defensive coordinator Wade Phillips. "Now fullbacks run once a year. We're going to stay a passing league." In the '80s the Giants bulked up the middle of their D to stop Dallas's and Washington's strong running games and won two Super Bowls. These days there may be a few games in which an offense runs on 60% of its plays, but far more frequently the ratio is 60% pass, 40% run. [/i]

To that I would add the following from a more recent Sports Illustrated:

The offensive explosion is immediately evident in the passing numbers of the game's top quarterbacks. Through eight weeks no less than three QBs—Drew Brees, Tom Brady (left) and Aaron Rodgers—are on pace to break Dan Marino's single-season record of 5,084 passing yards. Just as remarkable, rookie Cam Newton has more yards through his first eight games (2,393) than Marino had over the same span (2,390) in 1984. If the Panthers' rookie matches Marino's hot second half (336.8 yards per game), he too would break the 27-year-old mark. At his current average of 299.1 yards, Newton would smash Peyton Manning's rookie record of 3,739 from 1998.

isn’t that amazing how the record in the NFL is just over 5,000 yds… which is over 1,000yds less than the CFL record? 5,000yds for some QB’s is a piece of cake in the CFL.

you watch… it might take a while but the NFL’s design for pro-typical players will change. you’re going to see less 400lb lineman and more 280-320lb lineman. Less 6’6" 250lb linebackers and more smaller more agile Linebackers.

More Vicks and less (oh who’s a 3 step drop, throw QB???)

the design of a team will change. it has to in order for the passing game to work and then at the same time in order to defend against it the defense will have to change their method of attack.

cause what happens some year in the NFL when a team destroys everyone hands down, throws for 7,000yds, 60 tds and gets an average of 50+ points a game?

these big slow defenses that are designed to stop your big bulky RB’s and the 3 step drop QB’s. will be no match for the passing teams, with the roll out QB’s and the quick hits and mobile offenses (within their rules… imagine if they had unlimited motion? oh my god…)

if this passing transformation stays and grows the teams will have to change or else they’ll fall behind.

That was a stunningly predictable response. Yes, the CFL has emphasized the pass for longer than the NFL has, so 5,000-yard seasons have become somewhat commonplace up here since Warren Moon first hit that mark in 1983. But it's also a fact that three or four NFL QBs are on pace for 5,000 yards in a 16-game season, something accomplished by only one CFL QB in an 18-game season this year. Now are you going to say that because the NFL has four times as many teams, it's only logical that four QBs are putting up numbers similar to Calvillo's?

Umm, it is already happening -- those changes are already occurring. That's the whole point. The NFL has changed to a more offence-oriented, passing-oriented game. It looks a lot like the CFL looked 20-30 years ago. And it is getting the kinds of QBs who would have come to Canada back then. Anyone who clings to the notion that the NFL is boring, three yards and a cloud of dust, etc., is either not watching it or is not willing to admit what the evidence clearly shows.

I totally diagree. Just because the offense gets more yardage doesnt mean the defender should get away with committing a penalty.

I think every defensive and st coverage team penalties should be tacked on to yardage gained.

message to players, dont commit fowls.

but you can't get both, you can't have yardage and the foul.

the rules of football in the NFL are a little off the wall.

American Football is the only league that allows a penalty that has no bearing on the play should not be added on.

in the CFL (where the rules make sense) if you get an offside penalty on the defense and you have an incomplete pass, no worries you have the 5yds and repeat the down.

if you have a completion or gain the first down, then you don't need the penalty to assist you because you've already gained the necessary 10 yards and have reset the set of downs.

that's why the penalty is declined.

it's like if you have a holding on the offense and it's 3rd down, you don't make it 4th down and take the penalty yards because like in football a penalty makes you repeat the down.

the only time where a penalty and a loss of down occurs (in the CFL) is where you run out of 20 seconds to get the play running or if you have an Intentional Grounding (both leagues)

NFL has always been backwards when it comes to penalties.

remember.. Both Pro Football Leagues in North America Originated from Canada.

the Americans took the game that McGill introduced to them and then altered it to suit them, but over time.

I find the NFL is way too North south, black and white. there's very little creativity in the game but that's likely because of their rules.

the fact the running back can't move up until the snap of the ball is one

only one player in the backfield (receivers, RB's) can move at a time and it has to be sideways - thats two

that ridiculous rule that you are allowed to just throw the ball into the dirt to waste a play - that's three

The field being smaller also makes it more difficult to create offenses that are more challenging.

that extra player on the field creates a lot of havoc for QBs. many American QB's who have come to Canadian training camps have said how they always forget to account for that 12th man and it hurts their performance.

guys like Flutie and Garcia who both had success in the NFL after being in the CFL stated how they found it easier to read defenses and find their open receivers because there is no 12th man on the field.

the NFL is embarrassing themselves this year with their 90% of the kickoffs going deep into the endzone with no returns at all. like how exciting is that?? ooooooh.

not to mention the group of monkeys (players) bouncing up and down on the field circling the ball on a punt when the returner calls a fair catch. ugh.

Americans only know of the NFL, most of them probably never have seen a CFL game in their life. they only know about the American way of the game.

Canadians who play the game know there are two kinds of football out there.

there's 12 man where you play on a 65yd by 110 yd field, with 3 downs, 20 seconds. unlimited motion. among other rules

the 11 man with a 53 1/3 yds by 100 yds. 4 downs 40 second clock, no motion in the backfield.

Canadian fans who cheer for the NFL all because they have the best players who get paid the most.

they're always knocking the CFL. it's one thing to have a preference over one league, but to call the CFL names and put down their game is not necessary. the CFL may not have the best talent you can find out there, but the game is still exciting, fun, fast, competitive and more challenging to learn.

Football fans should be capable of loving both leagues. But it's hard for some, me included.

I watch a CFL game with two teams that have a huge rivalry, they go out and they have 3 downs to get 10 yards, so they need to pass more, they have a bigger field so they come up with more spread out plays and it creates the need for athletes who are able to use more of the field. then they have 20 seconds only to get the play going so they're moving quicker to get going again. they have unlimited motion so they have to create more complex defenses to stop them which makes the offense get more creative.

I find the Canadian game when I watch it on TV or see it live, to be quicker, more excitement, faster plays, more creativity.

I turn on the NFL on tv and immediately the tone of the game, the attitude the tv broadcasts are low key, toned down, less excitement. it's like they are drowning out the crowd more. the two guys who do the game seem to talk more about stuff and there's a lot more time inbetween each play. so when you've been watching a CFL game and you see 20 seconds and a play, 20 second and a play.

then you see NFL and it's 40 seconds.. a play.. the offenses don't have to hurry as fast to get back to the huddle, they can take longer to decide the plays, they're not moving as fast. so the pace slows.. there is a lot more jabbering and chit chat between the Play by Play and Color commentator during NFL games than CFL games.. because they have twice as long to do so.

I see a lot less creativity in offensive plays, most of the time the running back gets the ball and he goes right up the middle or just off to the left or right.. the QB then throws the ball and so often the receivers is running a fly pattern up the field, not much else.. very few outs or curls or fancy crossing routes, and you don't see very many offenses where they have no backfield and there's 1 receiver on one side and 4 on the other (maybe cause they can't fit all 4 there?)

there's a minimal amount of creativity in American offenses.. the stuff you can do in Canadian Offenses is outrageous but you can't in the NFL because you don't have the ability to have all the receivers moving around before the snap.

it's difficult for me, a hardcore CFL fan to be able to sit and watch an NFL game where they are limited in so many ways.

I eat fowls. :wink:

thats ok, as long as you dont have them committed 8)

sayin that you shouldnt get the penalty yards if you make more on the play is like saying that you shouldnt have to pay a traffic fine if you didnt cause or become involved in an accident.

another think I disagree with is this thing of saying it isnt PI is the ball is not catchable. What the hell does where the ball went have to do with the defender interfering with a reciever.

It like letting an obviously guilty person off on a technicality.

But in football you get the penalty or the gain. If its offside in the NFL, the offense gets the yards on the play but they don't get the 5 yards as well. or they take the penalty and lose the play. So why any different for defensive holding? Which is illegal contact on a receiver anyways.

Honestly, I cannot believe you even watch the NFL. This is so far from reality it is beyond absurd. No creativity in the NFL? Low-key, toned-down broadcasts?

As for this business about the 20-second play clock vs. the 40-second play clock, I will make two points. 1. If it was as divergent as you seem to believe, wouldn't there be twice as many plays in a CFL game as an NFL game? And yet as I showed earlier in this thread, there were actually more offensive plays in NFL games in 2009 (the only year I compared, but I am confident it is a pattern and not an anomaly). 2. To suggest that there are actually just 20 seconds between plays in the CFL is just plain wrong. Watch a game in person and you will see that the 20-second clock does not even start until the referee determines that all of the player substitutions are finished. This is a demonstrable (and negative) impact of changes to the timing rules. I have watched a lot of games from the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s on a DVD recorder with a 30-second skip function. For the older games, if you skip 30 seconds ahead as soon as one play is blown dead, you almost always go straight to the next snap. For more recent games, if you do the same thing, you almost always see the teams still standing around well before the ball is snapped. The clock rules have been changed to allow more time between plays and fewer plays in a game, both negatives IMO.

Yes I have turned to CBS or NBC to watch a game for a while and I notice the atmosphere for the game is no where near as exciting as when I watch a CFL game. It's just not as exciting, feels dull.

They can't blow the whistle in when the yard sticks aren't in place. During down 1 to 3 they will or should start the clock once the ball is in place. If on down three the team punts, the referee then waits until the offense is in the huddle or lineup on the ball. If they gain a first down, no matter the yardage, they must wait for the sticks to be in place.

Watch the last 3 minutes of the game. The ref can't blow the whistle until all 7 refs are in place. On a first down, he blows in the 20 second clock in once the ball is down and the sticks are set

IMO every penalty by defense and st coverage should be tacked on yards, in both leagues. The only problem is when they blow the whistle to end the play, which I think they should never do, unless a QB is about to be blindsided by an offside defender.