teir 2 cfl? Good or Bad idea?

With a number of Cities mentioned as expansion sites, and ALL of them needing new stadiums to meet CFL standards for attendance, why not expand to 4 cities, with each new team owned by 2 Cfl teams,. these new teams would play against each other only and their rosters would consist of players who need more development,IE-cis qb,S who would play for a set amount per game. based on what these cities stadiums could generate, (aprox 10,000 seats.) This could be a 2 or 3 year program , And the cities that support thier teams could move up to CFl by the 4th year??????

MD, you'll find that a this sort of thing was tossed around in this thread:

[url=http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=15628&start=0]http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?name=PNphpB ... 28&start=0[/url]

re-crfadmin-similar yes, But how could a poll be added?- IMo this is an important question because the cities mentioned for expansion don't have stadiums. would the cfl venture to build a stadium if they don't know if it would be supported? hence the question. :slight_smile: -merge this with the other thread for sure!

not true destruction. London has an 8K seat stadium, quebec has a 18.5K seats, will have a 10-12K seat stadium fro 2009-2010, 10.4K at Queens in Kingston.

That just leaves the question of is there more Cities with suitable stadiums or will more be built, a CFL2 league would be best with 6 or 8 teams in two divisions.

The Problem is the league might be most popular as a Spring league, but serves it's purpose best as a Summer league(while the CFL is going)

The problem is that Canada is no small country. Victora has a 14,500 seat stadium but I don't think that they could afford to send an entire team to Quebec, London, or Kingston every 2 weeks or vice versa, You'd have to keep the league in the east, or have no interconference play and have them play off for the final.

No problem. I was just pointing it out because I didn't want you to think that your thread was being ignored. :thup:

That second part sounds fine to me. It still would be a fair amount of travel, but at least it's reduced drastically.

it doesn't cost that much to send say a 38 player team, all though interconference play would need to be limited.

good idea is 3 teams in Ontario, 3 teams in Quebec/Atlantic Canada

have a 12 game sched:
2 divisions
8 divisional games and 4 non-divisional

Travel to other Division is only 2 times each year(so like 50-60K costs) in division Travel would cost around the same(both Totals).

if teams average 10K+ attendances with say 15$ average pre-tax tickets =
71015 = 1M in ticket Revenues
Boxes revenue = ?? (teams would hopefully have 10 boxes each and gain 100K a year from box revenue)
concession/parking/merchindise revenue = ?? (hopefully 50-100K profit)
Sponsorship revenue = ??? (hopefully 500K-1M)
TV revenue = ?? (hopefully 3-4M a year, from Sportsnet, CBC, TSN or the Score)(other stations are also options but unlikely)

Players could(should) receiver a base Salary so that team costs equal to 750K total.(15-20K per year per player)
that is actually enough there are other leagues that pay much less

I thought we had a two tier CFL now. Any team that has won 10 only or 12 out of their last 54 should be in Division II.

Do I absolutely love the idea? Yes ...

Do I think it would work (ie, be financially stable)? No ...

How do I vote? With my heart or my brain?

Brain. If it wouldn't work, it's not a good idea.

Great idea for sure but as said, too costly I think unless done on a very regional basis.

There is this league, the richest league in North American sport, known as the NFL. They own this little league, a minor league to their own, called NFL Europa. The NFL loses millions every year with this smaller, developmental league. The CFL cant afford to do that. And realistically, as much as it $ucks, we all know the attitude towards the CFL is that it is a developmental league. Obviously, we the fans dont think like that, but some people do. Bottom line is we dont need one, and Im a bit suprised that 33% of people do think there should be one.

Great idea....except one major thing...Owners with deep pockets.

We're having a hard enough time finding owners to get "Tier 1" CFL franchises in Ottawa and the Maritimes. Travelling on the plane costs money!

As much as it sounds nice, it wouldn't work, I voted No.

There is this league called the AFL, that has a Functioning development league called the AF2
The AFL doesn't lose millions each year on their development league.

NFL expanded to an area(Europe) that doesn't care about football at all, some countries have slowly grown to like it, but those places didn't know the rules when Europa started up. poor example.
Also add in huge travel costs as to reasoning of why loses are high, teams do need to pay for players to go to europe!
That's what.. 1K$ per player right there?

'In 2001 the NFLE cost an estimated $20 million annually, averaging $3.3 million per team'

[url=http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/BERA/issue3/football.html]http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/BERA/iss ... tball.html[/url]

Now if a CFL2 was created, with 6 teams that have an operating cost of under 2M per team(so 750-900K on players rest on travel, coaches and so on)
Providing there is atleast some attendance(5K fans per game at 20$ average ticket before tax, 7 home games) Tickets with stadium capacity around 40-45% cover almost cover player expenses.. WITH BELOW 50% ATTENDANCE!
Corporate sponsorship, Concessions, Merchandise, Parking all add to the Bottom line.
cities who could hold a team are:
-London, (8K Seats)(TD waterhouse)
-Quebec City, (18.5K seats)(PEPS)
-Moncton(with the new stadium),(10-11K seats)(to be built/named stadium in 2009-2010)
-Kingston (10.2K Seats) (Richardson Memorial)

-Waterloo, Guelph, Sherbrooke all have stadiums around 5.5K which could be expanded(joint
CFL/CIS/provincial plan) to 8-9K.(Min for the league is 8K seats preferably with Luxury boxes/party boxes)

Halifax could work, but they need a new stadium(3K isn't enough), Ottawa works if their CFL dreams are ended.

a TV deal would be needed from Sportsnet, the Score, TSN, CBC or another station. to the tune of say 3M a year atleast 2 games a week shown.(might be hard to get, but what does the Score show now on saturdays/sundays?)

How does 750K work for player expenses?
teams have a 38 man roster atleast half of that(19 players) must be NI's and 4 Imports(if at the 19 max) are DI's. meaning 9 NI's must start.
Limit of 5 players who are Veterans of more then 4 Pro Seasons(CFL, AFL, NFL)
Players must be 20 years of age

750K /14 week season/38 players
53.6K player expenses per week
1.4K per player per week
players earn just under 20K per year.

Player expenses could be even lower, to 15K per player(that's 570K on player expenses)
Starting lower is best, players should receive say.. 50% of total league Revenues.

The main players this league is looking at is likely Juniors who can't go to Uni(for whatever reason), unpolished CIS grads, Amercs to learn the CFL game, QB's(NI and Import)

Expenses of 2M per team means the highest possible losses would be 12M
That means no attendance, no community support, nota.
and it would seem that the new TSN deal pumps 6-8M into the league, so the 2008 Season would work.
I don't want to see all of the TSN deal going to supporting a failed league however the plan isn't for the league to be a complete failure.

It is hoped that these Cities would support the league, 50% attendance(that's say 6K average)

If tickets range for Season tickets from:
10$ to 40$(front rows Row 1 to 5 or 10)
the average ticket goal can be had an a large number of Seats could be affordable by middle class families of 4.
Single game tickets range 13$-50$

Its the same 33% that want Football in Alaska, Milwaulkee, and Spuzzum........... :roll: :roll:

The CFL hasn't got any wheres near the operational budget of the NFL.

Let the dreamers dream, cause thats all its going to be for the next 20 years...Dreams!

The Real CFL teams start training camp in less than 3 weeks. The legitimate discussions will start soon.

Barnes, you got me thinking about another problem - where are you going to find players for this league? NCAA grads would probably choose to find a "normal" job, instead of travelling to a country they think is frozen in ice year-round, to earn less than 20k a year and a very, very slim chance at making it to the CFL (keep in mind most NCAA grads that come to the CFL are doing so to try and get noticed by the NFL).

I definitely don't think it could work as a developmental league, and I'm almost certain no TV station would be interested in spending a dime on it. It's hard enough as is to get TV stations interested in the CFL, let alone a semi-pro league of relative nobodies.

I think what you're thinking of is amateur senior men's football. It already exists in this country ... The players in it already know they're never going to make it at the pro level, and it would probably be best to simply not delude the CFL2 players into thinking they could make it, either.

Amateur senior football in Alberta:


Team in Red Deer:


Football Alberta:


Football Canada:


Great list of links:

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/stars/soostorm/index2.html#professional]http://www.angelfire.com/stars/soostorm ... ofessional[/url]

I saw references to a Canadian Major Football League (for all senior men's football in Canada), but couldn't find a website quickly.

The first link you have.....I think thats the league that Statik76 plays in.

Where does the AF2 and other Minor Football Leagues get their players?

Canadian juniors are a good option to look at, CIS grads.(or CIS players who no longer have CIS football eligibility)

This is a 14 week Schedual, it is an option these guys could have off-season Jobs. Not all, but could allow this, especially if say these players get off-season Jobs that are Seasonal anyways.

The amount of players make in the Minors down south is nothing or in independant Baseball or in ECHL hockey.

ECHL hockey players earn around 250-500$ a week.
Look at Northern league Baseball and how much those players make.

I think your under-estimating the appeal or dreams of some of these players to have a chance to play in the a pro league.

Especially if the Seasons are aligned so that CFL2 players are ‘cuts’ from CFL teams.

There are 8 CFL teams that cut 17+ players each
17*8/6 = 22 players+ right there per team.(add another 17 if Ottawa returns that’s around 3 per CFL2 team)
17 is the difference between the 46 man active roster + 7 man DR roster(51 total) and the 68 TC roster. Does not include if CFL teams have Draft picks/Juniors

Not all CFL cuts will want to go to this league, but there is a possibility it could be common in CFL rookie contracts to have a CFL2 assignment clause.

Not all CIS/NCAA grads, graduate with Degrees. All CFL2 Teams are basicly playing at Canadian Universities, meaning deals/plans can be made so these players can go to University in the off-season and get an education as this league has almost no interference with the University year.
Start in June end by october.

hopefully in 2008 the CFL season starts mid/early June, Meaning this CFL2 league could start last week of June, 14 weeks from the last week of June is around the last week of september, 2 week playoffs end the Season by mid october.

The CFL could allow for CFL rosters to expand by 2-3 spots(on the active roster) for CFL2 players at the end of the CFL2 Season, this allows for these players to have a chance to latch on specificly to the weaker CFL teams(whichever teams don’t look playoff bound like Hamilton last year)

Numbers may be off as it should be a 12 week system for ideal 6 team Schedual, but I’ll stick with 14 for now.

the CFL(with Ottawa) will have a 20 week Regular Season, that means the CFL2 Season would end 6 weeks before if the CFL2 uses a 14 week Schedual.
Playoff in CFL2 finish a month before the CFL playoffs.(that’s 4 games atleast for CFL2 players to make an impact on non-playoff teams)
a 12 game CFL2 sched makes more sense with up to 8 weeks of CFL after the CFL2 ends.

These players are only making say 15K in a 14 week Season, so 1K$ a week. no player would want that, it’s just 4K$ a month?

CanuckKev, Have you seen some of the Programming on sport channels? what their paying for?
TSN had the Canadian pond hockey championships the other night, Poker Poker Poker, Darts, bowling, CBC has Horse Jumping.

The amount any station would pay is unknown, 3M can be a very very long shot.
However you never know. 1.5M would be fine 250K per CFL2 team.

Aslong as the broadcasts would be of a good quality I’d watch it.
There is always the chance the CFL could broadcast it over the internet and try to pick up some advertising revenue, all depending on their average viewing audience/attendance.

Back to players, if CFL2 teams need to get 38 players, with possibly no TC or a limited ones, unless the CFL speeds up their TC cut times(NEVER going to happen)
Although teams might be more likely to Assign players to CFL2 then they are not to cut them as they would then get playing time.

With say… 22-25 players from CFL camps, the CFL2 would need to sign say 15-18 of their own players, Canadian Juniors, CIS grads, NCAA grads(Division II, Division III)

Now if it is done the other way as a spring league, it needs to start in March(a tad cold out) TC in Febuary(very cold out) This to get a 12 week Season + 2 week playoffs in.
This and the league has the fun of competing with hockey + CFL teams will be scared their prospects get hurt before TC.
Other way it’s a way to keep teams young prospects in Canada.
Just looking at CFL rosters there are alot of players teams would love to keep, especially if they could play 12-16 Games and come to their camp in 2008 on the same contract.

Why do people play Junior football? They don’t get paid, in fact they need to pay. Because they love football, perhaps want to get CIS scholarships or have CFL dreams, All those Junior players should have jobs they work during their off-season and Junior Season… or they live at home with their parents.

This league could do alot the same, it is possible to Lower further the amount players would receiver(to say 10K a season) and provide house(year round) for the players.
This lets the players have a home, Teams could work with the Community to get off-season jobs for the players.
Some players would leave for the CFL, and with the veteran rule it’s not really a long term plan, it would just give the players a chance to develop.

Salaries would need to be capped hard. Experience is CFL/CFL2 Experience only Must dress for 10 games
Rookies Make X amount(10-15K)
Sophomores X(1-2K more)
Juniors X(1-2K more)
After Junior Teams can negotiate their own contracts for possible Stars(it would be similar to AHL stars, can’t break into the NHL but are starts in the Minor league)
Alot of these guys would be character guys, or Skilled players but can’t get a serious look by the CFL.
I’m thinking Wade Miller or Jamie Stoddards. Who have Speed or Size issues for their position but play hard and can actually put up good numbers.(Special team numbers mainly)
Also Canadian QB’s, any CIS QB doesn’t get a look by the CFL, but could be a star in the CFL2.

There are possible jobs these guys could have in the Community, say Substitute teachers(lets them go straight into education profession when they retire)
There are many jobs that allow for 4 day weeks working evenings during the Season. If the need be.

But not all or really many, players graduate with Degrees, you can only play CIS football for 5 years and if you were sitting on the bench your first two years an extra 2 could really help your Football development and Education.
Any player who is backing up an All-star their College/University Career could be great just needing a chance to show their stuff.
Possible guys right there.
There is a whole bunch of NCAA guys right there, any backup from a big school like Michigan.

The league could totally flob if their not playing quality football and aren’t marketed tis true tis true.
Testing the markets is needed, possible support, how much people will pay.

Just in comparison. Winnipeg has Independant Baseball and Draws 6K+ per game, their tickets are Cheaper then the desired level but still good draw.
Also the Nothern leagues player salaries for a year are capped at around 200-210K for a 22 man roster. that’s under 10K per player.
no Potential CFL2 city has any sort of Sport in it’s City aside from Major Junior Hockey.
There is of course Minor City leagues, but no AHL, NHL, MLB, AAA Baseball or TOP Basketball teams.

Example, in London is the Intercounty baseball league considered even a top minor league?

Do any of the teams in The suggested Cities(Quebec City, London, Moncton, Kingston + possibly(2 of) Guelph or Halifax or Sherbrooke)
Only if a team was in a CFL city would they compete with those league and if so they would be in TO or MTL or Ottawa who have ample pop to support a team(10K+ people paying 20$ per game)
It is an option to get to 8 teams to have:
Quebec city
Montreal(Directly affiliated with the Als)
Halifax or Sherbrooke

Toronto (directly affiliated with the Argos)
Waterloo or Guelph

Each team then has a direct affiliation Is only an option does have problems

There are other options that can be used.
Possibly having a more game intense schedual however injuries would be a big issue, 24 games in 12 weeks.
Say games are played two at home type.
So teams would play a two game series(like in other Minor leagues to lower travel costs)
Thursday and then the following Saturday or Sunday.

12 homes games means more Ticket Revenue without having to pay players more(players are paid on a weekly format)

However with 12 home games in 12 weeks, attendance could average 7.5K at 15$ pre-tax tickets and get 1.35M from Ticket Revenue. *that’s low ticket costs and not max attendance as all stadiums would be ATLEAST 8K(but preferably 11K+) and all should have 10+ luxury boxes.
Providing team costs can be kept low(player salaries under 800K and player salaries 50% of total costs)
Teams need to find just 250K to break even(and more to earn a profit)

Also, those Amateur mens football leagues are Basicly Beer Leagues.

Not looking to make a Beer League the goal is a develpmental league ala AHL, AF2.