Stealth NFL in Canada promotion

While everyone’s attention is focused on the Olympics in Sochi Russia, our friends who would rather have American football in Canada than have Canadian football in Canada are at it again.

Here is a promotion to fill out a survey that was sent to a Toronto-based friend of mine. You’ll note the focus of the survey is trying to find support for the idea of the NFL in Toronto, as if Toronto was not part of Canada. This survey does not want to know if sports fans in Quebec or Saskatchewan want to see the NFL in Canada. They know the answer from those parts of the country would not be supportive of the goal of replacing three down football with four down football in Canada.

If anyone knows more about this survey, such as who commissioned it, please let me know. All I know is what this cover letter says. Not surprisingly the organizers of this survey did not send me an invitation to participate. :wink:

Cheers, Bob.

See the survey cover letter here ... -promotion

I assume it is the survey referred to in this TSN story from a couple of weeks ago. (prior to Sochi)

A Minneapolis, Minn. firm it seems, well the name from which the email came from:

That would just be the firm commissioned to do the survey Earl. I wouldn't be surprised if it was either Rogers or MLSE who ordered the survey. Just the timing of it considering the other machinations MLSE are currently working through makes me think it is likely MLSE behind this.

Ok Travel. But could this not be positive in that with corporate support for an NFL team in Toronto that monies come forth for upgrading BMO and with Roger Goodell seemingly linking any NFL franchise to seeing that the Argos are taken care of in a some sense, well it does bode well for a better football type stadium in Toronto to play host to Grey Cups. Just saying... The Argos alone I don't think can garner the corporate support needed for a pro football stadium in Toronto unless Braley really does have something going on in Vaughan, Markham wherever. :?

Bob, what are your thoughts about MLSE as owner of the Argonauts?

on their website,( under the heading CLIENTS > STADIUMS it lists: NEW NFL STADIUM (Toronto, ONT)

[b]Founded in 1988, Conventions, Sports & Leisure International (CSL) is a leading advisory and planning firm specializing in providing consulting services to the convention, sport, entertainment and visitor industries. -

With offices located in the Minneapolis and Dallas metro areas, we assist our clients from the earliest stages of project planning, ensuring that all decisions are informed ones. Our consultants provide in-depth information, creative solutions to underlying issues, a thorough analysis of financial implications, and various measurements of risk and return surrounding alternative courses of action.[/b] the question remains who commissioned this firm to further the NFL in Toronto cause?

I'm guessing MLSE ordered this - they've publicly admitted Bob Hunter is working not only on the BMO thing but on an NFL stadium too. It has become pretty clear to me they have a plan that looks something like this.

1 - Renovate BMO for increased seating 30,000 capacity for soccer with the ability to expand to 40,000 for things like Winter Classic.

2 - Include Argos in that - which will cost tens of millions more in extra stadium renovation costs over and above what it would cost to do renovations for just soccer because of needing to engineer for movable stands - but small price to pay in the overall scheme of things of their ultimate goal of bringing NFL to Toronto - and it would allow them to host the odd Grey Cup game there. (Since apparently the NFL has told people they won't come to Toronto until Argos are secure - in other words NFL doesn't want the rest of Canada to get mad at them which would happen if they were responsible for the death of the Argos)

3 - Schmooze and play nice with NFL owners so that eventually they get the go ahead for a team either by moving a team (likely Buffalo) here or through expansion.

4 - Build an NFL Stadium and try to get as much of it as they can financed through government, naming rights and seat licenses

1 and # 2 we see happening now. # 3 and # 4 are more long term and my guess is they have put a 5 - 10 year time frame on those coming to fruition and we won't really know for at least a few years if they really are progressing on those.

And as the TSN article states - a survey like this is the type of due diligence somebody wanting # 3 and # 4 to happen would be doing.

Sounds about like that Travel, agree. I noticed on the web that the Packers and Raiders have used Intercept Concept Solutions (CSL) as well regarding stadium issues so my guess is this firm is fully entrenched with the NFL with these types of surveys. Of course the NFL in Toronto is not a done deal by any means so we can't jump to conclusions that it is.

I'm a bit surprised by this knee-jerk and somewhat paranoid response from Mr. Young...
First he states "our friends who would rather have American football in Canada than have Canadian Football in Canada are at it again." Mr Young seems to forget that the NFL has already established that a prerequisite to establishing an NFL franchise in Toronto is that the Argos remain in good standing and successful there. In fact, it appears the Argos are about to be placed on the most financially-stable and viable foundation that they have enjoyed in decades. How is that eliminating Canadian football in favour of American football in Canada?
Secondly, Mr. Young states "the focus of the survey is trying to find support for the idea of the NFL in Toronto." In fact, as stated in the cover letter, the survey is part of a market study "to determine the potential support for an NFL franchise and stadium in greater Toronto." In other words, the survey seeks to measure or gauge the amount of support in the corporate community in the GTA. In my opinion, misrepresenting the survey as "trying to find support for the idea of the NFL in Toronto" is insincere at best.
Thirdly, the survey is specifically directed to compile information from the corporate community in the GTA... i.e. from the location where the potential franchise and stadium will be located and where corporate sponsorship will be most sought-after. Why would anyone expect the consulting firm to seek responses from "sports fans in Quebec or Saskatchewan"? If Mr. Young and his colleagues want that information, they should commission their own survey in rebuttal. Similarly, Mr. Young says he is not surprised that he wasn't invited to participate, but again, unless he has a corporate presence in the GTA, why would he be asked to participate?
Instead of trying to discredit what appears to be a legitimate attempt to compile information about potential corporate support for an NFL franchise and stadium in the GTA, Mr. Young and the CFL should be seeking ways increase the excitement and entertainment value of their on-field product to best meet the NFL threat if and when it arrives. If the NFL is a party to and approved this survey, then the statement "Greater Toronto... continues to be at the forefront of potential relocation markets..." may remove some of the doubt about their intentions.

Not too hard to figure out who commissioned the survey. Both MLSE and Rogers are listed as clients of the firm. Come on Bob ! A tech guy like you :stuck_out_tongue:

Well said seymour. :thup: Mr. Young, embrace it and learn to live with what's potentially happening and work with it to football's advatange and the CFL's advatange or else you'll be at the end of the schtick I'm afraid.

We all want, us true football fans here in Canada, for the CFL to succeed and prosper but we can't hide behind a curtain of preventing competition even if that's the easy way out to keep the CFL solid. No, work with Roger Goodell. There is a ton of money in Toronto that is much more than you have and if they want the NFL, they will continue to pursue it with or without you, so work with the players and make sure the CFL works with this to gain something. Roger Goodell is your friend, he doesn't want to see the Argos hurt. Work with him is my advice to you Mr. Young.

The CFL has to decide which direction it goes in Toronto and you don't think this is meaningful ? You have a CFL owner who's negotiating the sale of a franchise while making a condition that he owns 25 percent of any NFL franchise brought in to the Toronto market.

Yes Hf and it sounds like Bob Young is doing the sour grapes thing. Not going to work I'm afraid the sour grapes approach. We know Bob Young turned down Braley's request when he bought the Cats for advice, sounds like he's still turning down the advice. In the long run that could hurt the Cats. The Cats need to get in with the Argos and get into the NFL game people in Toronto to stay in the game.

It's a bit of bitter pill Bob, I get that, you've put a lot into the Cats franchise, but there is nothing you can do about it I'm afraid. Sometimes you have to join the Romans and be a partner, even if it means you're not the big head honcho on everything. The key is you will have a say and be at the table and get something in return, if you're smart. I think that is what most of us are advising here.

Look at minority governments, the minority in the government is actually quite influential even if they don't hold the position of chief.

Unbelievable people Earl Travel P etc ... None of you realize that the NFL kills Canadian Football . No corporate suppourt
no CFL . The economics of pro football in Canada is tight without the full suppourt of Toronto corporations it will kill Canadian Football . Three downs are dead .

With friends like you who needs enemies . I am with Bob on this and stop being rude to the man who saved the Cats .
He knows more about economics than you will ever > Bob Ackles who worked in the CFL and NFl and knew everything there is to know about football knew that a NFL franchise in Canada will end the CFL as we know it . Cfl with the limited economics needs a clear open market without the giant NFL across Canada at the professional level in order to succeed .

My only provision to Bob is gradually reduce the american content once we have enough players at the pro level to make it truly Canadian .

I hope Braley builds a stadium in the burbs an ARGO CFL only . Bob can all the owners get together have Minto in Ottawa or someone else with know how start a enterprise to get a stadium and residential - commercial complex going in Toronto suburbs for the ARGOS .

Say no to MLSE .

Whoa WinstonC! :cowboy:

Firstly, welcome to the site.

Secondly, a little respect goes a long way, especially when you disagree with someone.

My concern with MLSE was always that the goal is to make sure the Argos don't get their own stadium. If MLSE wants 150 million in upgrades. Why not just put the 150 million in a football stadium for the Argos and give MLSE a 99 year lease at BMO and tell them to pay for whatever upgrades they want ?

Do you believe 25 percent ownership of an NFL team is enough . I believe that when Braley negotiates with MLSE he is negotiating for the entire CFL . I would want a deeper influence than that . I would want 50 percent profits of the NFL team go directly to the entire CFL as indemnity for life without this anchor over the heads of the rich corporate or individual the CFl as a pro league is finished . I think it is fair . We have borders for reasons . Our country could have been bought many times over without these tarifs in place . Toronto is too big to lose without a plan to protect the small profits that exist
today .

Just because Winston is a new poster and some other people have thousands of useless posts, doesn't translate into him being disrespectful. I find some comments from those with thousands of posts just so stupid it makes my head shake with embarrassment for the poster.
I had the same comment thrown my way when I first became aware of this venue for voicing my displeasure at the Cats with the whole tier 1 / 2 debacle. Just because I was new didn't mean my comments were less important or needed scolding by another poster with more posts.

By that rationale, we should allow NBC/CBS/ABC/Fox stations in Canada to compete with CTV/CBC? If Canadian TV networks can't compete with Americans, why should they be protected? Perhaps United and American Airlines should be allowed to compete freely with Air Canada and West Jet in Canada? Wouldn't that lower travel costs? Why not let Chase Manhattan and Fanny & Freddie mortgages compete with Canadian banks? Competition breeds innovation. Why should Canadian farms be subsidized when they can grow and process food products more cheaply in the U.S?

MLSE's Leiweke said a couple of weeks ago they had hired one of the North America's top stadium design companies to investigate expanding BMO and to design a proposed NFL stadium in Downsview. So it should be no surprise who commissioned this survey. This is all about gauging the interest of Toronto's corporate community in buying $50,000 seat licenses, which is essential for financing the NFL stadium.

This "survey" doesn't seem very impartial with the assertion "the potential new stadium will meet the needs and desires of the Greater Toronto community." Apparently the survey has already concluded the Toronto community "desires" a NFL stadium before the results are even in.

When or if the Buffalo NFL franchise becomes available to buy,
Why on earth would you think it would automatically be going to Toronto?
It would be put up for sale to the strongest bidder that already has an NFL ready Stadium.
Many Cities in the States, where by the way, Governments use tax $ to build the Stadiums
will be going all in to get that franchise.
The Bidding will be fierce and the NFL would block any bid that wouldn't have a Stadium or a total commitment to a Stadium in place, along with outstanding family ownership.
As far as Toronto getting an expansion franchise, I think not for the same reasons, no Stadium, or ownership and would have to outbid the same U.S. Cities that lost out on the Buffalo bid.
The NFL to Toronto is somewhat closer now than 10 years ago, but it is still very much a pipe dream and light years away from reality!