Spencer Watt

Chris Williams, #80, Ottawa RED BLACKS.

Have some more whiskey :smiley:

Williams and Carter are often in the slot, if you pay attention for the whole game.

There are true wideouts (guys that are always out wide), and there are WR who often run crossing/post type routs, like Carter and Williams. Very similar to the way Earl Winfield was used.

The TD Coates scored last year was designed for the Z, but he ran a post route and scored just past the post. So one of the few plays designed for the Z has him inside like a slot that lined up out wide on the line to start.

Throws to the Z are typically the farthest ones, which makes it easier to pick. The Z is pretty much a decoy for the most part, but still needs to run good routes to suck in the DB’s to him.

Earlier you posted:

Now you're saying:

Chris Williams is the best receiver on the REDBLACKS and Duron Carter is the best receiver on the Alouettes, according to CFL stats.
Obviously, you don't need to go back 20 years to find an example of a WR who is also the best receiver on his team.

Which just reinforces my point. If you know and I know that I am not going to throw the ball to the " Z" receiver, then how is he an effective decoy?

Plus, if I do throw, you are likely to pick six it, what good is he to me? I am better to use a tight end, giving me more pass protection, and an another "safety valve" for short yardage. Think Peter Dalla Riva, Tony Gabriel, Paul Dekker.

I'm just saying the "Z" wide out is a high risk, low pay-off position which an innovative coach might make better use of?

Because if they don't cover him, then the O will throw to him for sure. Anyone not covered is the number one target.

Sure, there are two WR who are the best pass catchers on their respective teams, but each team starts 4-5 receivers x 9 teams. So out of at least 45 starters, only two WR are considered the best on their team. Also, only 2 of 9 teams. So at least in terms of the majority, my points are correct that the best receivers are usually the SB's.

It just sounds like we go in circles. The Z guy is not the number one target unless he is. He is, unless he is covered, then he is not.

I guess it is just part of the game that I can not get my head around. As you all seem to be saying, every team takes the same approach. It just seems to be an area that could be ripe for innovation?

You said “all”. People gave you examples that disproved your generalization, but instead of admitting you were incorrect, you’ve changed your position to “most” while still insisting you were right all along. This is what is known as “moving the goal posts”.

I never said I wasn't wrong, but 2 out of 45+ starters isn't really proving me wrong either.

Let me reword it by saying that most of the time the best receivers play SB.

Sam G had three straight 500~ yard seasons at the Z in Hamilton, and is also doing well there in Montreal, so it's not like it's always a decoy.

Each team is allowed 12 men, and you need 1 on 1 as much as possible, so putting someone somewhere else will likely put an extra DB on the target receiver.

Use Fullback as an example... hardly ever used, but certainly needed at times - just like the Z receiver. Also, how well your Z does, and how much you go to him, is reliant on who they are and what their abilities are.

Just a math question. If the argument is based on % of the 45 starters who are the best on their teams, and at least 2 are WRs, doesn't that mean that a maximum of 7 can be inside receivers / SBs? Meaning a max of 7 out of 45+ starters? Sounds like the inside guys don't fare too well either.

Sorry CFF, just having fun with you -- you've shared some great insights in this thread. Clearly the majority of the top receivers in the league today play inside. But that's not always the way it was.

My memory goes back to the 80s, and I remember guys like Terry Greer and Swervin Fernandez being pretty dominant from the WR spot. The Ticats of those days had a rock on the inside in DiPietro, but the flashy big-play guys were named Baker, Stapler, and Winfield, and they played on the outside.

(I'm struggling to place Champion - I have a feeling he started as a wide-out but shifted inside at some point during his career.)

Saying Chris Williams is a "great" WR is a streatch. Saying that CW is the "best" receiver on the REDBLACKS is not only factually incorrect, it is a direct insult to Greg Ellingson who IS the best WR on the team. Suggesting that there is any comparison between CW and "THE" Earl Winfield is fully and absolutely preposterous.

Watch the Esks v. RB game from last night for a full review of why CW is a one dimensional WR at best. He has speed, no doubt. But that's it. Highest number of dropped passes per target last year, two in-the-numbers passes dropped last night. 5' 6" (after a night in the gravity boots) and easily out-jumped by Pat Watkins for an INT. In fact CW didn't even try to fight for that pass therby indicating another poor ability/ attitude. Blatant alligator arms on a low pass in traffic that he then proceded to kick into the air all while standing and watching the ball arc into another INT. This is not indicative of a "great" receiver. It's an indication of an average rec with some speed and questionable heart.

Refferencing Duron Carter in this way may be more apt ( other that the comparison to EW which would still be preposterous) yet his body of work is very limited. There is no doubt that Carter is the best receiver on the Als, with all respect to Nik, and that he has all the talent, skill and heart to be great. However, part of being great is attitude and being a good teammate. There is zero evidence that DC has met those standards yet. Not by a long shot.

For this discussion to be more scientific, it would have to be a direct comparison of Z receivers only.

Finally, suggesting there is any true difference between inside and outside receivers is an obfuscation of the reality of the modern CFL and football in general. Very, very rarely does a CFL offence line up in a two-back, WR/SLOT SLOT/WR formation. Very rarely does one receiver stay in one position for an entire game or for a particular drive. Motion/waggles, bunch formations, 5 and6 rec sets, the focus on favorablre coverage match-ups all require receivers to be in multiple positions multiple times per game.

The Z spot may get thrown to less than the other positions but to pigeon hole a guy as being only that spot is troubling.

Andrew Grigg was a pretty good Z rec.

Get your facts straight…

Chris Williams (after 7 games): 45 completions, 687 yards, 74% completion rate, 7 TDs

Greg Ellingson (after 7 games): 36 completions, 608 yards, 69% completion rate, 1 TD

Williams is smaller and faster, so he gets open more, but I feel Ellingson is a better pure receiver. He has better hands, and you can see that by simply watching games. Williams drops balls that Elligson would easily catch.

If Ellingson "has better hands", how do you explain the fact that Williams catches 74% of the passes thrown to him and Ellingson catches 69%?

Also, what does "a better pure receiver" mean?

It means he is better at the number one requirement of a receiver - catching.

I don't care about the silly stats you keep posting, as stats are never more than about 25% of the real picture. Ellingson catches the harder passes better. Fact. Source? My eyes.

Ask yourself, "if I could only have one of these guys on my team which would I take?"

As others have stated, your stats mean nothing. Nice try though.

Better yet, why don't you ask Austin/Tillman. I guess the answer would be neither one since they botched the opportunity to have both. :slight_smile:

That's a dopey but nonetheless quite predictable statement. Never let facts and reality interfere with a blind and preconceived opinion.

Check out my reply to BillyDee's post - it applies to the above comment as well.

You're not making any sense. Williams catches a higher percentage of passes thrown to him than Ellingson does.

Who is more reliable at catching a football: Dave Stala, or Chris Williams?

Which one of them is out of football?

Did Stala's age cause his hands to become worse than Chris's?