We'll still have IW falling apart and needing $20Mill over the next 10 years.....
We'll still have IW falling apart and needing $20Mill over the next 10 years.....
My guess, one bandaid after another after another and after 10-20 years of bandaids that end up costing $20 mill, maybe more, you have a stadium that still might have some serious structural problems to say enough is enough. But hey, that's a negative scenario, it is possible that the bandaids are enough to keep it viable for decades to come, I honestly don't know.
I've said all along that there should be another stadium option that doesn't include the Pan Am Games.
The Pan Am bid is all about taxpayers footing the bill.
There should be a Private/public proposal similar to Ottawa's where, investors develop a stadium and land around the stadium that can be used for more than football. Condos/restaurants/stores maybe a casino where the developers can make some money back from their investment in a stadium.
There could be some federal/provincial tax money available to re-develop brownfields. It does create some jobs during this recession.
If the city has okayed $60 mil, why not take that $60 mil and REALLY fix up IWS.
If we don't get the games, it's better to spend $60 mil to do a good job on IWS vs $150 on a new stadium. Yes IWS is old but geez, just sink a little money into it and it will be find. Wrigley Field is still standing. Fenway Park is still standing. Both of these parks were built before IWS.
Look at Yankee stadium. It was built in the 20s and had a major rehaul in the 70s. It's still a fine stadium but no money could be make on it.
The north side of IWS was completely redone in the 70s. Why not have a plan that over the course of 3 years, everything gets fixed so that it will last another 30 years.
The thing we all seem to forget is that things get old and sometimes you have to replace it. Look at the NHL. The oldest building is the Mellon Arena which was built in the mid sixties. Everyone else has a newer arena.
Has anyone been to the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit? If you think Copps is in rough shape, you should see this arena. It's roughly the same age as Copps but looks like it's right out of the 50s.
I think we should simplify things for everyone.
IWS has lasted almost 80 years to this point and we'll be playing in it for at least another 5 years. So we have a stadium a stadium that will be 85 years old. I don't know how much it cost to build but I think the city got it's money's worth.
Now lets say we get the games and the stadium. It will cost the city $60 mil and we need a new stadium.
The new stadium will be built better and therefore should last for a long time. To make it easy, lets say it lasts 60 years.
So it will cost us 1 million per year for the life of the stadium. Then there are the maintenance costs to keep the building running BUT when we build a new stadium, the city should be able to make money off of it with international competitions, concerts, soccer, etc. Who knows, maybe one day, Toronto could bid on the Olympics and it could be used for some minor events.
But let's say after 20 years, it costs the city $500,000 per year for maintenance. So it is going to cost another 20 mil on top of the 60 mil.
So in the end it would be a total of 80 mil for 60 years. (I'm not including inflation in this equation)
Does this really seem that bad over a 60 year period?
This city gets their money out of everything. The Hamilton Forum was around for 67 years, Copps is near 30 years, Hamilton Place is in its 40s, and IWS is going to be 80 next year.
We need a new stadium. Period! Yes, the money that we might have to spend could be put to use on roads or sewer systems or whatever but we need a new stadium. They fix roads and sewers all the time. I don't drive on every road they fix and the people who drive on those streets all the time might not use the new stadium.
I am very frustrated.
I laughed at the article today in the Toronto Red Star by Rosie Dimanno - she states:
"Pan Am Games heavily skewed towards Hamilton, not exactly Canada at its tourism show-off best, no offence intended."
she does have some good points, these games are going to be spread across the region. Can you imagine the athletes and reporters sat in that horrendous QEW and 403 traffic trying to get to Hamilton from Toronto.
We are trying to show off Ontario for tourists - why have events in Hamilton??
Sounds like a cheapshot, to me.
The city and team needs to move forward not stay in the past which is where we are now. IWS is a great place to watch a game but thats it. There are no other revenue streams nothing to do around the stadium. No hotels, no restaurants unless you want to hang out at the Dizzy Weasel. A move is needed not only for the Cats but for the good of the league and City. The plan if happens as planned is a win win for everyone.
Putting more money into IWS will do nothing for the future of Hamilton period. There is much more a stake here than the Tabbies.
[quote="Tiger_Dirt"]If the city has okayed $60 mil, why not take that $60 mil and REALLY fix up IWS.
If we don't get the games, it's better to spend $60 mil to do a good job on IWS vs $150 on a new stadium. Yes IWS is old but geez, just sink a little money into it and it will be find. Wrigley Field is still standing. Fenway Park is still standing. Both of these parks were built before IWS.8) and you couldn't find a more beautiful park to watch a ball game in than the good old "Friendly Confines" of Wrigley Field !!!!!
I guess ol' Rosie never viewed Hamilton from Sam Lawrence Park or over in Dundas on top of the escarpment where we took the inlaws from Montreal and said amazing, never thought Hamilton was this beautiful.
Oh well, I guess that's how Rosie got her job, thinking about a place without actually visiting it and writing about it like she knows it like the back of her hand. Journalism at it's finest as they say.
Lots of people make judgements about Hamilton and don’t really know anything about the city or have only seen certain parts of it. I don’t see that changing. I don’t really care what she thinks. I also love IWS and will miss watching games in the close proximity that no track around the field provides. I do hope the bid wins though because it would be great for the area. She has no clue what Hamilton has to offer from a “tourist” perspective. She can keep her nose in the air along with her pinkie in that hoity-toity crime-filled centre of the universe.
vor Wynn needs $100 million in upgrades
By Kevin Werner/News staff
Feb 25, 2009http://www.hamiltonmountainnews.com/news/article/164593
Diane Lapointe-Kay, the city’s director of recreation and culture, said to properly renovate the stadium will cost about $93.7 million.
In a 2003 report the cost to renovate Ivor Wynne had been pegged at $72 million.
At a minimum, she said, the city must spend up to
$20 million to keep the stadium going to maintain safety.
The seat slabs at the south and east stands
need to be replaced at a cost of about $14 million,
a new artificial turf at a cost of $1.5 million should be installed by 2011,
and another $3 million in capital renewal costs
has to be pumped into the stadium, she said,
for electrical and plumbing improvements.
Ward 4 councillor Sam Merulla said the maintenance problems city staff described
left him “very concerned? that maybe the building is “unsafe.?
He suggested maybe the stadium should be closed down for the football season.
He said a 2007 report on the stadium stated it
was a “safe environment for generations to come.
“Now the sky is falling,? he said.
Let's face it, Sam is running for mayor, so anything to get exposure..
The proof will be if he shows up for any games, or makes a motion at City Hall to get the season canceled.
I really doubt that a football stadium of any kind can stimulate a neighborhood's economy. Bearing in mind that it wont be in use from mid November to mid May, and that the main tenants only play 10 home dates a year, there probably wouldnt be enough traffic to support bars and restaurants.
i'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest many of the fans who want a new stadium are die hard cat fans who want a change...any kind of change....anything that could get the team out of its rut.
IWS is a shrine celebrating CFL football. There isn't a lot a freespace around IWS but develop what land there is put in areas where fans can meet and picnic...a splash park for the kids.....maybe move the HOF to the area.....give trhe fans a reason to come to the park early. Forget about parking. In Montreal, I pay double what cat fans do for my season tix...and it took me 6 years on a waiting list to get them....so for my 850, I get the pleasure of sitting on tthe 35 about 20 rows up. To get to those seats, I have to park about 4 Ks away in an over priced lot (15-20$) and cram into a shuttlebus with what seems 1000 other people (I became a father with less physical contact!). Of course if I don't want to take the bus, I can bust a lung climing the mountain....
All this to say is that if the Als are winning (which they usually are), the bus ride is pleasant, the walk is invigorating, the narrow exits (for fans in the north side of Molson, it can take a half our to get out) are "intimate", the mile long pee lines 'encourage self control". If they are losing, I start to complain about things.
That's a neat and good analysis of things, als4ever.
I tend to agree with you.... I don't think a stadium really does much to invigorate a local economy unless it is in use frequently all year round. The AC Centre in Toronto houses teams that play over 160 home dates a year between them. A new stadium in Hamilton will get 10-12 home dates a year max. That doesn't do much to support a lot of restaurants and shops the other 355 days a year.
I know there are ancillary benefits... but these are the kinds of presumed spinoff benefits that advocates for a big new initiative always use to try to justify an investment that is not otherwise supportable.
This is why a privately funded stadium won't fly.... even if the owners build lots of nearby commercial and other space, the anticipated return on the required investment just isn't enough to justify it as a private business matter. Bob Young is doing his part... he'll invest tens of millions, and he's looking for a soccer franchise to get some more revenue-generating dates out of it. But with or without the Pan Am Games, substantial public investment will be needed to build a stadium that suits the Ticats' requirements. The Games seem to be the straw that stirs the drink in attracting public money to the project.
If the Games come and the stadium is built, great. If not, IWS will eventually fall down. It's a neat old place, but let's not kid ourselves... it isn't Fenway Park or Yankee Stadium and the CFL isn't major league baseball... in terms of attendance, sponsorship, or tv revenue. CFL franchises are financially marginal at the best of times. There isn't enough duct tape and paint in the world to keep IWS going forever.
What I would worry about is the team's future if there are no Games here and no new stadium. A deteriorating stadium with poor concessions and other facilities is not a great basis for running a successful sports and entertainment business over the long haul.
The idea that the traffic (people traffice not vehicle) a stadium itself will draw won't create/support bars, restos and retail is dead-on, but that's excactly why this location (West Harbourfront) is so important. There are plenty of bars and restos in the area already (Hess Village and James North are both a few minute walk away) for pre-and-post-game merriment. Look at Toronto and Montreal - no bars right beside ACC, Rogers or Molson park, but those ballparks and the bars/restos of Crescent Street, Front Street and the entertaintment district all feed on one another to make the whole area vibrant.
Depsite popular opinion, downtown Hamilton is not dead - it has several pockets of life, in some cases very vibrant life (Hess Village, James Sounth, James North, Locke Street, Dundurn South, King William, the Waterfront, John South, parts of International Village are examples). It just has dead zones between some of those places (the brownfields, the parking lots between Hess and Jackson, much of the Jackson megblock itself, parts the King downtown, the area around Wilson and John, the area around the jail).
The area where the stadium is to go is one of the most daunting dead zones - a large area toxic brownfields separating the vibrant waterfront from both the vibrant Hess Village and the emerging James North. Remediate that brownfield (a very expensive process) and those three healthy areas begin to grow together. You don't need bars everywhere and restos everywhere and recreation everywhere - you just need all of those things within easy walking distance, and no need to walk through an industrial wasteland to get from one to the other.
Build on the mountain and you get a mostly empty stadium and mostly empty parking lots and nothing else.