Scott Park school for sale

[url=http://valeriepeebles.com/new-commercial-listing-1055-king-street-e-hamilton/]http://valeriepeebles.com/new-commercia ... -hamilton/[/url]

More wishful thinking from me that we could have a sport/entertainment precinct with Scott Park school up for sale, King George school on Gage Ave N closing, and the talked about closure of Parkview school.

Talk about timing. And here it is again the the news being recommended for closure.

A volunteer committee assembled to look at the future of secondary schools in the lower city says the public board should shutter Delta, [b][i][u]Parkview[/u] [/i][/b]and Sir John A. Macdonald to combat declining enrolment.

But Parkview’s unique special education program should be preserved in a new 167,000-square-foot high school constructed in the city core.

[url=http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/652753--close-delta-parkview-and-sir-john-a-arc-says]http://www.thespec.com/news/local/artic ... a-arc-says[/url]

That's good. That would help start revitalizing and cleaning up that area, although much more work would be required of the surrounding area. Particularly along Barton St.

I was going to post this in the Stadium thread but I think Cpt'n was right to start a new one. This is a big deal and deserves a thread all of it's own.

I have mentioned before that where Scott Park in concerned, I have long since envisioned a mixed community centre/Hall(s) of Fame. I was hoping for a deal between the current owner and these Sports Halls, but at an $8.8M price tag, it would seem the City certainly won't be and shouldn't be, buying it.

We should have been looking ahead years ago when the board let this go. Were we assuming that we would win the Commonwealth bid and changing locations? Why wouldn't we have bought it then and tore it down for parking? I am glad we didn't now looking at just a few of the inside pics. I seen now why Don the current owner, loves the theatre portion of this facility.

I honestly, picture more of an arts, sports, and education disctrict with hopefully not completely losing Parkview and King George.

These are the reason why this community board are important - so that we can have many varying views both sports minded and otherwise.

We are not going to have bars there. Along King/Barton maybe but it's residential. How do we create a district worth hanging out in/going to even on non-game days, just to be in the presence of the surroundings.

We may be tearing down history but we are preserving the most important part of that history - the sense of community that being surrounded on three sides by homes brings to any facility that resides at 75 Balsam.

First, for now, every other week around 25K football fans will converge on these grounds. Football fans. Sports fans. Maybe that will become every week if we get a soccer team. A Hamilton Sports Hall of Fame and the Canadian Football Hall of Fame housed within Scott Park school along with a space that can double for galas, presentations, and a community theatre, and many amenities that can be worked into a community centre already in place. Punch out some windows as time passes and maybe Scott Park isn't the dark block many of us see when we look out a bus window or through a drunk eye while tailgating. Take a good look at it. Look at a few of those pics, maybe they'll hold an open house and we can all have a good, long, detailed look within this facility.

Let's go in a dream and think of the big picture. Think about what is both there now and what we know will go there and even envision some things that aren't. Dream. Dream big. No dream is dumb. Have fun. Then right all those thoughts down beause the potential loss of Scott Park, any baseball diamonds, changes to the arena and pool, the loss of BTS, Parkview, King George. They may not seem huge to some but for others, they are life changing.

This isn't about the Tiger-Cats. It's about that community. We all want to see the Cats thrive because otherwise, we lose our beloved team or on the flipside, we just wasted a boatload of cash. But just because one or two people say it has to be a certain way and this is what they need, doesn't mean there are not some very innovated and world attracting ways all sides can't have their cake and sit back and enjoy it too.

This is big. Really big. The City thought they would get this building back some way; some how. A $150M stadium brought up this buildings worth and deservedly so. Many people, organizations, and even our council, took chances throughout that debate. This one worked out for Don even though his initial desire was to do something with it prior to it being vandalized.
Maybe he realized financially it was going to be hard for him to truly make a go of it with the building as is but if he gets anywhere near his asking price, I bet this man whom I talked to for a half hour a few months ago and who seems like a good community person, will do something extraordinary with these funds and to me, it seems like a win-win. Existing millionaire invests in one property, making a new local millionaire of another.

Maybe I am wrong in my analysis. I am no business person or politician, but I hope this scenario and that building, turn into something extraordinary. Not just a condo or not just a parking garage or blacktop parking, but something that truly compliments both the community, and the stadium district in general.

There are a lot of things at play here. The biggest, is the uncertainty of Scott Park, Parkview, and King George. If I was to label the district off of what it stands for now - if I was to give it a business plan - a mission statement - if the boundaries were defined, I would identify it as a Sports and Education district. Arts can be added should Ottawa Street and it's galleries, The Pearl Company, and the community theatre within Scott Park were brought into play.

There are technically, two public schools and two high schools surrounding Ivor Wynne. Is it really something we want to or should change? What is unique about it?

Look at the recent success of Walk Off The Earth.([url]Walk Off The Earth - Raise the Hammer) What will it be about our new stadium, that will make it stand out amongst the world crowd because I strongly feel we should aim high and except nothing, but plan ahead works towards the next however many years, striving to be the best sporting, entertainment, and education district in the stadium industry. Education could even been seen in Scott Park becoming the home of two Hall of fames as there is valuable education for children and adults alike, in Hall of Fames.

Thanks for sharing Cpt'n and sorry for the long-winded reply as usual, but what do we want to be known as? We all know that Hamilton in general, deserves to be painted with a much brighter brush than it has within at least my lifetime. Does part of that change stem from what this stadium district becomes? I think in bare minimum in total local and outside business spending, $150M+ ways, yes.

Further to your second posting, Cpt'n, regarding Parkview/other proposed closures:

I am not sure these closures are appropriate. What happens when enrolment goes back up? What about the added pressure to our transit system with all these kids bussing it to schools. Gone will be the days our kids will be able to walk to school and mine was a brisk 15-20 minute walk in the winter months, but it was walkable and all my friends lived between me and the schools I attended - and there were three from primary, middle, and secondary schools - now combined into 2 although even Barton has been in talks of closure.

Parkview for so many existing and future reasons, should remain where it is. It doesn't need a football/soccer field because the existing/new stadium are community use. There are three baseball diamonds and a big field across the way. A hockey arena for skating outings, a municipal pool and hopefully Scott Park school becomes something that fits into all of this. Partner with the boxing gym on Barton for an anger management avenue for students. Build a new Systems School tall and strong where Parkview is. Those kids are there because they couldn't integrate into their catchment schools. No amount of time away from this existing setting is good for them. Build over the summer and utilize space in Scott Park while in the new school term while the school is being built. Hell, if they can build a church in a weekend and it was done where I grew up once, why not a school over the summer?

Why also with regards to the historic and beautiful Delta, can't we look at ways we could utilize empty space. Office space, rent out one of the garage bays to a senior/past Delta grad to run a mechanic shop out of. Make it a shared high school/Dundas Valley School of Art type facility. What other creative uses could we think of for all schools scheduled to close, to avoid closure and enable kids to go to school in their neighbourhoods.

What about school spirit, history, and tradition. I am thinking of my old Barton myself. The cheer. The colours. Are school closures really necessary and if new schools need to be built like it seems Parkview does from looking both on the outside and within, then does this really have to be done far from where they exist today?

Are we really and truly looking at the bigger picture here? Are we 'really', thinking about the children of our community who we always say, are our future. Do we really treat them like our future? If they are the future, then here is a thought - how about we ask them what they think. My 3 and 5 year old's surprise me sometimes with what they come up with. Let's treat them like the adults they are in many ways inside.

As I've mentioned before, Tranist Oriented Development is pretty much the only way to create such a hub. Many cities have used this quite successfully.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit-oriented_development]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit-or ... evelopment[/url] http://www.cmhc.ca/en/inpr/su/sucopl/sucopl_007.cfm

And Hamilton has it's own TOD guidelines http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartments/ ... friendly=1

With the provincial financial problems on the immediate horizon, LRT is looking vulnerable, although still a possibility.

As far as the Scott Park school building, I'm for leveling that windowless, architectural blight. And that's coming from a former Scott Park student.

Yes, it certainly looked more promising transit wise when LRT and GO stops looked possible in the near future but both don't see to have any footing right now.

However one thing is for certain, it's already a spot where countless bus routes cross so it's good in those regards. An LRT stop and a GO station off of Gage, would certainly be a nice plus.

As for windowless, I do see your point. I feel the same way about Sir John A. How does that change with windows and at what cost. Is it better to just tear down? Is someone going to pay $8.8M for a building to tear it down? Even with a $150M stadium, is $8.8M a financial viable option for someone looking to build a condo or some other building there. I would think given the problems another developer is having close by with regards to required parking per tenant, a condo might be out of the question? Who 'owns' the parking on that lot? I would hope the arena/pool over a condo?

Does this potential sale really change the tone of this whole ordeal. Now it could be totally in private hands and technically be unrelated and detrimental to the district. Can we control that? Should we be trying to control it? What if the person wants to build a strip plaza? How do we influence the outcome in a positive/both sides win scenario without saying we won't support you if you build a condo but if you build a seniors centre, we'll bend over backwards to make it work.

I think the Box J Boys should buy it.

:) Football's Scottish Rite where the Royal Order of Pigskins gather every Third Tuesday of the month. The Oskee Wee Wee chapter.

Larry with all due respect, having the schools next to the IWS2 area is not the best land use.
It is for a residential reason, but it is not for a Stadium Precinct reason.
IMHO you want to keep the Stadium in a residential neighbourhood instead of changing the neighbourhood to a Stadium Precinct.
You were elated when IWS2 was saved and for great reasons.
If we keep the Stadium and do not change the neighbourhood from residential to Entertainment, we will end up with the same problems that old IWS had.
With the new Stadium being built into a precinct area the School Board properties became extremely valuable.
If the City could acquire the said properties from the School Board for land swaps with City owned property in the Burbs where people are moving with their families and schools need to be built it could be a win win for both the city and schools but not for a residential area wanting to keep the schools.
I think and hope the new IWS2 Stadium will host many events and hope it will be busy every week for a big portion of the year.
Football, soccer, concerts, trade shows, monster truck events, MMA, Grey Cups, Soccer Championships, Etc.
The area around the Stadium is hopefully going to change, to cater to the people coming into town for the events.
We will need Bars, restaurants, a Hotel and Casino complex, not Senior Rec Halls,Theaters and schools.
This will create local jobs for the residents of the neighbourhood, but not a good residential neighbourhood on event days.

You might be right on many accounts Grover included my love for the current residential nature of the area. I don't live across the street so I think its the neighbors that have a big say in the business plan we creeate for this district. If residents refuse to sell and we start kicking tbem out of their homes, than I am not okay with that.

How do we envision this transformation from residential to entertainment? Do we rezone it all entertainment and allow someone to flip their home for 300K to a buyer who turns it into a bar with upstairs apartment with families on either sides? Maybe many will jump at that cash and either buy bigger or pocket the 150k profit and just nuy a little to the east or west if they enjoy living in the district/area?

I do see your points but I think we should also not tunnel our vision towards what everyone else has. If the community is happy with the process going forward and the outcomes then so am I.

Then it could be called "Box Gray".

You might be right on many accounts Grover included my love for the current residential nature of the area. I don't live across the street so I think its the neighbors that have a big say in the business plan we creeate for this district. If residents refuse to sell and we start kicking tbem out of their homes, than I am not okay with that.

How do we envision this transformation from residential to entertainment? Do we rezone it all entertainment and allow someone to flip their home for 300K to a buyer who turns it into a bar with upstairs apartment with families on either sides? Maybe many will jump at that cash and either buy bigger or pocket the 150k profit and just nuy a little to the east or west if they enjoy living in the district/area?

I do see your points but I think we should also not tunnel our vision towards what everyone else has. If the community is happy with the process going forward and the outcomes then so am I.


Thankyou for your reply Larry and thankyou for caring.

I think that both of you gentlemen have great ideas. Between the two of you and the Cap'n, your environments all
have merit and I am hoping that along with folks like us, others will rise to the occasion and voice their opinions
to the people in government, specifically planning, and get some good things done.

Personally, I like the idea of using a combination of ideas from each of you. I'm sure that good things can happen
around IWS2, particularly if neighbourhood residents voice their opinions.

I'm still wondering how we got rooked into including a brand new North stands onto the price tag after the deal was signed and delivered.

[i]I think that both of you gentlemen have great ideas. Between the two of you and the Cap'n, your environments all
have merit and I am hoping that along with folks like us, others will rise to the occasion and voice their opinions
to the people in government, specifically planning, and get some good things done.

Personally, I like the idea of using a combination of ideas from each of you. I'm sure that good things can happen
around IWS2, particularly if neighbourhood residents voice their opinions.[/i]

Well said rocky. My fear though, and I admit I don't know anyone very well at all who live in the area of IWS, that their lives don't revolve around what is going to happen with the area, like most people most of them go to work, school, stay home etc. family people, singles, couples, retirees etc. who are mainly concerned with the daily task of living and hoping their own street and immediate neighbourhood is safe. And aren't real activists who go around voicing their opinion. I think it is incumbent upon the city to try and engage as much as feasibly possible ordinary citizens opinions about what could happen around the IWS2 area. Again I remember well when the Henderson Hospital was going to be turned into an emergency only facility and that really brought the mountain east people together for a large gathering at Sherwood high school. Something like need might be good. Can't remember who initiated that Sherwood night though but the gym was packed that's for sure. Maybe some bait could be laid ie. there is going to be a huge strip club open up near the stadium. Not being silly here really, just trying to make a point that something like that, albeit it's usually negative things that get people riled up, do tend to get people thinking. Of course I'm not suggesting the city actually do this at all, laying a negative type bait.

I'm sure the people in the area though do have a lot of great ideas like Larry and Captain.

Well, it seems like Fred Eisenberger will have nothing positive to say about IWS2 or the area, sounds like he doesn't care actually, pretty sad, it's simply about his own private agenda with his buddies. It's all just a "sad tragedy" in his opinion :roll: If he was an intelligent man rather than just smart, he would be chiming in now with ideas on how to make the project better rather than being a negatron and continuing to push his own button, I guess he's not capable of that though:

Eisenberger blasts Bratina, may take a run in next mayoral race

[i]Former mayor Fred Eisenberger has raised the possibility he will run again in 2014 after a wide-ranging interview in which he criticized Mayor Bob Bratina and said, “I sense there’s not a lot of council support for working with Bob.?

He also revisited the Pan Am stadium debate, called the plan to redevelop Ivor Wynne “crazy? and said it was “a sad tragedy? for Hamilton that the stadium will not be built on the harbourfront.

Eisenberger made his comments in an interview with former CBC reporter Laura Babcock on her webcast program called Chats in the Lair. The segment was taped Monday night[/i]

[url=http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/653253--eisenberger-blasts-bratina-may-take-a-run-in-next-mayoral-race]http://www.thespec.com/news/local/artic ... yoral-race[/url]

January 11, 2012

I honestly hope that the city level's that blighted, windowless box and leave the Jimmy Thompson Pool and Scott park arena intact. The school exemplifies everything that is wrong with Brutalist architecture as it is a lifeless, hideous, bunker like building without even a single Window that not only blocks the view of Ivor Wynne from King St. but also is something of a hindrance in potentially continuing to use the area as a park and not parking.

Level the existing structure and connect the Pool and arena with a scaled down athletics center that the Ti-Cats and others can utilize as a training facility.

As far as the area, well...as much as I would like to see business developments happen around the stadium, it's not likely to happen until the area boasts greater density. Even with a new stadium and a new soccer team, Ivor Wynne simply doesn't hold enough events to attract enough people for businesses to locate here. I would love nothing more then a high quality pub or having the Jack Astors post game party right next to Ivor Wynne, it's not going to happen as is.

Higher density isn't likely to come in anything but the far, far future to the area, so build for the now and keep the area residential and provide something residential development can use.

Is that a reason to keep a school open? I don't know if you have ever been out in the country but kids all over this country have to bus. I too went to Barton many years ago and could walk 10 minutes to school, but the family moved to the Mount Hope area and my younger sister had to bus from there to Ancaster. You can't build a school everywhere and demographics rule. Many high schools in the city were built fast during the "baby boom" and they couldn't forsee the future with smaller families and families not wanting to live in the downtown areas of cities. There is a push to build condos in the lower city but this is not going to attract families, it's going to be people where the kids have left home and they are downsizing I doubt the enrollment will ever go back up.
The public school that I went to on the mountain is gone and there are some nice houses built on the land. I should imagine that's what they will try to do with Scot Park, try to sell it off to developers but I doubt that anyone want to build in that area so unless the city buys it I think it will sit derelict for many many years.

Ideally, turn it into a Muli-story parking lot for IWS, with the city getting revenue from it. Reality is that most people drive to IWS they don't take transit and something like an LRT will not change that, if only about 800 to 1,000 take the Canon bus to the stadium why would an LRT make any difference.
I doubt the city can afford to buy the property and build a multi-story that's why I say "ideally" build a multi story.

This may be an unpopular statement or point of view but who cares it's mine ...

When the Ti-Cats buy scott park and build it up or they pay rent to use it then by all means the ideas for something for the cats is ok .. but if its just a city paying the bills and handing over use to the cats no way.

But good ideas :slight_smile: