Rule Change Thread (post all your thoughts on potential rule changes here)

CFL Talk
#1133

It's interesting that a lot of money is vied for in games of chance such as a simple slot machine. And these games are quite popular as we know even without any or hardly any real skill involved. I guess there is some level of excitement with games of chance, maybe just part of the human condition.

Sports excitement comes from 50/50 blend of skill and chance

" In sports, how do you define excitement?

According to a study by a psychologist at the University of California, San Diego, it's an equal mix of skill and chance.

"No matter what the sport is, we found that there's just this right mix that creates excitement and uncertainty and interest in the game," said Nicholas Christenfeld, assistant professor of psychology at UCSD.

"This mix should be the same then in a football season, or a baseball season, or a tennis tournament, or a chess tournament."

In his study, published in today's issue of the journal Nature, Christenfeld discovered that successful professional sports--from baseball and football to tennis and chess--have evolved in an almost Darwinian fashion to create an optimal mix of skill and chance. To attract fans and keep their interest, sports whose outcomes generally rely less on skill have compensated over the years...often by playing more games. On the flip side, those sports whose individual outcomes closely reflect the skill level of the players, have evolved in such as way as to increase the role of chance." ...

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#1134

Interesting. Another game that has boomed in popularity over the last few decades is poker. Often referred to as the most skillful game of chance, which I think is accurate.

#1135

Therefore proving that you don't grasp the concepts.

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#1136

Although poker and other card games, chess do not involve a motor component which, to me, differentiates between a true sport and otherwise. For what it's worth.

Yes, poker doesn't involve dice (I don't think, I don't play poker so I might be wrong on that) nor does chess which would mean more skill, less chance involved. I don't have the brain power to be very good at pure cognitive skill games like that, next life I'm going to put in a request to be proficient at these types of games. Well, wasn't that great at sports either involving motor, better put in a request for that as well next time around on this planet. :slight_smile:

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#1137

axis and allies is a really skilled game of chance :slight_smile:

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#1138

That's correct.

The field goal, requiring a placed kick necessitates a shorter more precise long snap in relation to the punt. Over time the ideal spot for the field goal attempt centered around 7 yards back of the line if scrimmage where punters line up some 15 yards back of the snap.

The longer snap of the punt allows sufficient time to get the kick away such that fewer linemen are required to hold the return team kick blockers off. Blocking for a punt can be accomplished with a regular compliment of lineman, a few smaller, faster up-backs behind them and 2 or 3 gunners on the periphery to form the initial punt coverage.

On the field goal, the tight placement and general desire to have the kick spotted closer to the goal necessitates essentially everyone who isnt the holder or kicker to block on the line of scrimmage. As you said, generally big lumbering lineman with no head start or speed to get down the field to cover the kick should it miss.

It is also true that punts and kickoffs for that matter are generally kicked between the hash and sideline in an attempt to box in the return team. This obviously can't be the case on a field goal attempt except for the extremely rare intentionally missed field goal which I've seen used in one particularly windy game by the Argos in Hamilton around the year 2000.

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#1139

Interesting. Now speaking of winds, I remember hearing winds were generally increasing due to climate change perhaps, see article below. If this is the case, would this be a factor for perhaps going more to a possession game ie. 4 downs hence less punts, to decrease the factor that increasing winds may have on the outcome of the game making the game a bit too much more of having a chance outcome? Ok, perhaps this is silliness on my part but I thought I'd throw it out there at any rate. What's a good discussion these days on anything without talking about climate change, eh? :slight_smile:

Just watching a video of this game. Looks interesting but very involved it seems. Think I better stick with crokinole for the time being with the wife, but thanks for the recommendation.

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#1140

To me, the rouge is as necessary as always. A player attempting to run the ball as fast and far as possible while avoiding being tackled provides more excitement than a player going to a knee and expecting consolation yards. It was more exciting a hundred years ago, is more exciting now, and will be more exciting a hundred years from now.

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#1141

Exactly, never thought of that. Just go down on your knee, don't do anything other than catch the ball, and your team is rewarded with yards, no consequence at all. Not exciting at all.

#1142

THE ROUGE

If I had to create a code of gridiron from scratch and someone told me to describe the scoring system.. it would include the rouge.

I'd tell them in this sport, there's a field of play, a goal line at either end upon which there are goals (consisting of uprights 18'6" wide and a cross bar 10" high) and goal areas (end zones) which extend beyond each goal line for 20 yards.

Scoring can be had by place or drop kick on the uprights or kicking of any sort into but not beyond the the goal area that results in a dead ball in goal.

But the main and most significant score would come by possessing the ball in the goal area. This would score you many points but give you the opportunity to score even more by another kick on the uprights or posession in the goal area.

If you likewise take the ball into your own goal area and it becomes dead. Well that's sort of an own goal and you'll give up some points there too but not as many as when you carry the ball into your opponents goal.

Ergo..

We would have the following:

1pt: kicked ball into but not in flight beyond the goal area that subsequently becomes dead in goal.. maybe the refs can wave a red flag around and we can call this a rouge..

2pt: Ball brought by your team into your own goal area that becomes dead in goal.. we can call this a safety since it's the safest thing to do sometimes..

3pt.. a "goal" scored by a kick from the "field" on the goal post assembly between the uprights and over the cross bar.. 2 centuries ago this sort of thing might have been the main and only goal of the game..

6pt: your posession in the opponents goal area.. but definitely not beyond it because that's just stupid.. we will say some old version of this sport required you to "touch" the ball "down" in goal but that's not necessary anymore.. we will keep the name anyhow.. touchdown..

Oh and since this touchdown used to get you a "try" to score a goal from a ball kicked from the field which was the original goal of the proto version of this complicated game... we will let you do that anyways but for less points...

Score another touchdown? 2 bonus points.. score another field goal? 1 bonus point..

In any case.. I think a skillful version of the rouge belongs in Canadian football forever.

It keeps the incentive for the return.. it just needs a tweak to make it a more intentional score reflective of modern kicking capabilities..

But you know.. knowing the people who do make the rule changes.. if the rouge is ever actually tweaked.. it won't be a simple, all encompassing change. It will end up being a series of very specific ever more complicated changes.

In the next 5 to 10 years we will probably see rouges eliminated on field goal attempts and for punts exiting the sidelines in goal but not the dead ball line or something like that.. dribbled balls or drop kicks will be forgotten and the rules will regard these as they've always been but no one will ever use them to score.

It will be a hot complicated mess instead of a simple elegant solution.

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#1143

Well stated again @JoeyT

If there is one law that is most disregarded well beyond, it is the Law of Unintended Consequences.

And all too often after a change that is not necessary in the least is made for whatever reasons otherwise, there is buyers' remorse by some as others attempt to double down when they can't fix the unforeseen or ignored unintended consequences. Even worse are all those after the fact with short memories for their vocal advocacy.

No thanks now and leave the rouge discussion perhaps for the next decade the way things are going this decade plus the league has plenty else to right as a going concern.

I do not agree, but for changes associated directly with player safety that otherwise do not stain the game, that overhauling the rules now is part of the fix for what was already a breaking business model before the pandemic.

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#1144

You'd have to really frame it that way for it to be considered a "success". But I'm guessing most people don't see the FG attempt as an attempt for a scrimmage kick to penetrate the goal line into the endzone as a simultaneous attempt at a single point.

That's the problem with the optics of that. As Capital Dave agreed, maybe we need more re-education. But as it stands it is not an obvious connection for most. Else they (even broadcasters like Suitor) wouldn't say "single point for the missed FG".

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#1145

This is certainly the reason why. I thought the same thing.

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#1146

This is a tough pill to swallow for me of true.

There are merits to the rouge but most people don't seem to know it. For the supporters of the rouge I think it'd be best to reintroduce these concepts to the general public. Make it a differentiating point.

But alas, not sure that will draw more fans either.

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#1147

I understand also this line of argument because it's advanced at times in media circles for the entertainment angle and above all, professional (and big-time NCAA) sports are an entertainment business or you end up with phenomena like FIBA and various Olympic sports and wrestling like in the Olympics as long preceded what we know as "pro wrestling" since the 1970s. Few care after the rules become unappealing to the average fan.

Now I don't agree that's the case with the rouge or that you overhaul fundamental rules for such reasons, and I don't agree we are even near there on this one, but I do understand this line of argument that comes up in so many respects beyond the rouge especially from the ESPN / TSN types.

#1148

including punts? I'll go for that.

#1149

I think an ad campaign that celebrates why our CFL rules are more exciting than the American rules could attract more fans. When they ran such a campaign 20+ years ago, it worked wonders.

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#1150

I remember these. The second one is hilarious. Could probably update them with some CGI or something. Have the returner blow up or something when he's hit.

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#1151

how about a take off from the old pepsi coke taste tests.

2 drinks. with labels of CFL and NFL that the testers cant see.

Then they try one and always pick CFL

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#1152

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