recession and the CFL

Good post
the Ontario Govt has done nothing as of Late for the failing Auto parts industry in Ontario at least Ford Oakville is showing a rebound :thup:

I can't help but feel bad for older guys that get laid off or otherwise put out to pasture...but that's it. Anyone under 40 that complains about current conditions should either suck it up or try to improve their own lives.

Two universal truths:

  1. People are inherently lazy loafers
  2. People would rather blame others than take responsibility for their own failures.

Those folks who over extend themselves with credit are idiots. Who cares what the Joneses have. Live within your means....and if you want "more" means, then go do something about it instead of whining on an internet forum.

And no, cell phones, internet access, HDTV, playstations, etc., are not necessities of life.

as far as the auto sector goes (keep in mind that it in large part drives the north american economy) the biggest problem is japanese protectionism.

how many millions of japanese/korean cars are imported into canada and the united states? how many north american cars, in comparison, are exported to the Far East.

therein lies the root of the problem.

"therein lies the root of the problem"

And, your solution is what?
Pass a law forcing Canadians to buy North American cars?
Pass a law forcing Japanese to buy North American cars?

Both are impossible. Don't you realize that most people in other countries are not obsessed, as we are, with keeping up with the Joneses? We have had years of our publicity outlets telling us that 'bigger is better'.

The influx of smaller, more efficient, cars began over 30 years ago, and sales grew exponentially. Did the North American carmakers get the message and convert?
NO, NO, NO, They persisted on the track that has led them to today's situation. And whom do they blame? Not themselves, who made bad decisions. They blame foreign manufacturers and foriegn governments, who only did what intelligent views of the market dictated.

It's a simple case of the old truism, that the market will provide what the customer demands. If we were screaming for larger, heavier cars, the North American companies would be rolling in dough. But, times are changing, and we are not demanding what they seem dedicated to supplying.

If you want to regret what is happening, go ahead.
But, it is happening, and no amount of wailing by Buzz Hargrove is going to chsnge that. As gas prices go ever higher, people are going to look for economical alternatives. Our manufacturers have missed the boat.

Finally a topic I know something about!

No, it is neither the unions, the government, nor the rich who are to blame.

In fact no one is to blame. Life is not fair. Life is just what it is. It is up to us to adapt, not up to the world to adapt to us.


I agree on the whole with your point, I'm pro-trade, but governments sign trade pacts, unions strike and the rich choose to invest and how to do so. I think instead of saying 'no one is to blame', it's more a matter of 'everyone is to blame'. I don't agree that 'life just is what it is', NAFTA is something we chose to get involved in. I do think NAFTA is a good thing on the whole though.
So while the Chinese and Indians are making many of the old industrial items we used to make better and less expensively than we are, our standard of living is still higher than theirs and growing.
Agreed 100%, this is why trade is so important. It lifts tens of millions, perhaps hunderds, out of poverty and increases our living standard in the process. We are also creating new markets overseas for our goods.
The fact is that for every textile job we are shipping to the far east we are creating a couple of high tech jobs at places like RIM.
I think you've got the ratio wrong in this case. It's more like, for every few textile jobs we ship off, we gain a single high tech job at places like RIM.
But for anyone who is suffering the dislocation caused by the rapid economic waves that seem to be surfing around the world, you have my sympathy. And I agree the government (meaning all of us currently employed taxpayers) have a role to play in helping out on everything from providing the less fortunate of us with great and affordable education to unemployment insurance.
I think to help those effected by 'economic dislocation' we definetly need to invest the money from those who are doing well via international trade into those who are losing from it, so they can be retrained. But I also think we need to look in the mirror a bit when we sign these trade contracts. Is it really 'free trade' if we don't include clauses garunteeing environmental and worker condition standards in these contracts? The whole net gain behind free trade that those who strongly support it tend to argue is attributed to the idea of a 'comparative advantage'. It's the idea that if China can produce a car for cheaper than we can, and if we can produce a Blackberry for cheaper than China can, than it makes sense for Canada to produce Blackberrys and China to produce cars, and trade with eachother. This results in a higher standard of living for both parties, everyone wins. But I'm not sure that is really what is happening. When the 'comparative advantage' is based on slave labour like working conditions and little or no environmental standards, I think even if the increases in GDP of both trading partners year over year come out better as a result, it's a false gain and unfair to many people. It's a race to the bottom, not a race to the top. And it's not "just life" or "just the way it is", we have control of it. It's a direct result of how we decide through our government to trade with other nations. If we include things like labour standards and environmental standards, not only can we experience 'comparative advantags', but we can also make sure workers aren't exploited and the environment is respected.
But the fact is that Ontario is, on average, wealthier than we were 10 years ago, and we will be wealthier than we are today in another 10 years. This increase in wealth is going to create great opportunities for those of us well educated enough and motivated enough to take advantage of the opportunities economic growth will create.

Good luck, stay in school, and Oski Wee Wee!


I'm sure Ontario on aggregate, is wealthier in terms of GDP growth. But Ontarians, the families, on average, I'm not sure are really doing that much better at all. Many are doing worse. Especially since wage growth has been so low when matched up against inflation, as Canadians are competing against people with horrible working conditions and environmental standards.

I agree that people should try to educate themseleves as much as possible, and that individual people have a responsibility to look after themseleves and look for opportunities for success. But I just feel that the government, corporations, and ourselves are not blameless in this situation. Trade and captialism are amazing, they are making our world a better more peaceful and prosperous place. It's easy to look ahead 30 years and see a world where no nation fights because we all work for and with eachother, and we increase our wealth and knowledge for a good long time. But I strongly feel that trade doesn't "just happen" as part of "life", it's a very deliberate thing and we can properly regulate it to maximize 'comparative advantage' for all parties in a much more fair manner.

The price of rice has gone up roughly 200% globally within the last year -- largely due to higher energy prices, the derivatives shift of hedge fund managers to exploit global foodstuff commodities and biofuels after the subprime mortgage bubble burst in the States, and the spike that has caused in rice, corn, and other grains compelling many states in the developing world to ban staple food exports to ensure local supplies.

Where the personal "failures" and endemic human laziness mysticism applies to that escapes me. Deliberate actions by those with control of credit on the world financial markets has unleashed instability, particularly in the US housing industry.

When roughly 2.7 BBBBBBBBBBBBILLION on the planet earn less than $2 a day, lots of luck with that invisible hand. :wink:

The Bank of Canada has warned that economic growth is going to be affected by the credit crunch, big time. The latest outlook issued by the BoC is a call to buckle up for a recession.

Individual states DO NOT have the wherewithal to "regulate" these activities, because investors will move their capital to locales that let the market rip. That is the byproduct of globalization and financial deregulation on a global scale.

Hence reform strategies and protectionism will not fundamentally work at this juncture, short of a global economic collapse of a world war/depression scale that ushers in a panic in the powers that be to establish some kind of top-down, regulated financial system by a World Bank-style global central bank.

I don't foresee China, Europe, and the States sharing that bed, sorry.

Tick, tick, tick...

[b]The price of rice has gone up roughly 200% globally within the last year[/b] -- largely due to higher energy prices, the derivatives shift of hedge fund managers to exploit global foodstuff commodities and biofuels after the subprime mortgage bubble burst in the States, and the spike that has caused in rice, corn, and other grains compelling many states in the developing world to ban staple food exports to ensure local supplies.
Yes the price of Rice and Corn and other core foods have risen rapidly over the last year.

But the reasons have little to do with hedge fund managers, and everything to do with the political fad-of-the-day.

With the industrialized countries shifting agricultural production from corn for eating (low value) to corn for ethanol to drive our cars (high value) it leaves the cost of Kelloggs Corn Flakes at a price that a wealthy society like Canada thinks is reasonable but a poor country like Bangladesh cannot afford.

I'm not sure what the solution to global warming is, but using tax dollars to subsidize farmers to turn agricultural land into ethanol-producing land is not one of our better ideas.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? :wink:

Global macro-economics isn’t a strength of mine, but I do know that many poor countries would be better off with a Western style of government. When people are starving in Ethyopia, why are their leaders driving Mercedes Benz?

Capitalism isn’t the problem - it is what it is. What is needed is government to regulate, not participate in the system. A hockey referee doesn’t carry a stick. David Suzuki suggests we reform the tax system to eliminate income tax and impose carbon emmission taxation. See how many Hummers drive down Bay Street then.

If Western consumers didn’t march like lemmings into credit problems, hedge manager conspiracy theories would never get started. I’ve been quite worried about this situation for awhile now. All we need is one unforeseen event to topple our economy like dominos.

Too bad leaders of third world countries can get rich quick being in bed with western leaders. Switching crops to grow biofuels for greedy countries while your own people starve with no food is disgusting. They might get more money selling biofuel crops but if they cant feed the people what good is it......but they do get the Mercedes.

I'm not sure third world nation leaders are "in bed" with us nor are we greedy by switching to alternative fuels. All the world's problems are not caused by the West, but we have some solutions. Perhaps the people of those nations should revolt, like certain Western nations did. The separation of Church and State, free markets, and pluralistic values has served us quite well in a relatively short amount of time. Emerging economies like China have actually been around for much longer than we have, yet are still far behind.

If a country can grow food to feed its people but chooses to use arible land for biofuels because the west will pay more for it then its wrong. A nation isnt built or sustained by giving away its resources, especially food. Reports of farmers drowning chicks and dumping milk are not made up. Nobody grows chicken feed and can afford to transport the milk while people starve but the rich get richer while these countries grow grain and soy for biofuel and export 90% of it, nobody grows food and feed and nobody can afford to eat anymore.

I wish they had the off topic forum again.

Well, it is the off-season...

Actually, the topic is "Recession and the CFL". As we live in a global economy, issues affecting third world nations can have an impact on us and our disposable sports/entertainment dollars.

Having said that, BJ, it isn't our fault some people live under totalitarian rule. If people in North Korea are eating grass to survive, their cousins in prosperous South Korea aren't to blame.

We have a responsibility to show the world how our choices have led to prosperity and assist them (if possible) should they want to emulate them. However, responsible leadership does not sink into the debt position we have so our priorities needs to be re-focused. Rather than buying needless consumer items, we have personal and government debt to tackle before we lose privlidged things like the CFL.

How was that Zontar?

:roll:

Is there a forum for moralizing claptrap?

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:P

Good try and thanks for reading.