That is not what that means. That is your interpretation of it. If that were the case I'm sure we would see kickers trying to recover kicks and/or punts just like we do in the CFL. But we don't which logically tells us they can't do it.
hmmm.. this isn't brain surgery you know.
it's pretty clearly written. I had to for 5 years study rules for football and be able to interpret them on the field.
the reason kickers don't is because they're valuable and the coaches don't want some 350lb lineman smashing their little 180lb kicker into a crumpled heap.
what do you think legal recovery means?
I'm not saying anything one way or the other, but legal recovery is really all that rule says. Legal would tend to mean that it is allowed under the other rules.. if the other rules say the only way you can recover your own kick is if it touches one of the returning team's players first, then that's what legal recovery would mean.
Although with that said, I am 99.9% sure that you CAN advance it if you recover it in that situation, and I was pretty positive that you could recover your own kick no matter what league.
What Paolo said is correct. This is from the NFL Rules Digest at NFL.com:
[b]Any member of the punting team[/b] may down the ball anywhere in the field of play. However, it is illegal touching (Official’s time out and receiver’s ball at spot of illegal touching).[url]http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/kicksfromscrimmage[/url]
The rules says nothing about there being an exception if it's the punter who touches the ball.
From looking at the rules listed at the NFL website it seems like the only time a team can recover their own kick is when it's a kick-off and the ball has gone more than 10 yards (like with the CFL).
Correct Blue Blood ...and note that a kickoff is just one of three types of free kick in NFL football, and by far the most common, for which recovery by the offence is allowed once the ball has travelled 10 yards. Also on any such free kick, the receiving team may call for a fair catch.
This is also why any onside kick in American football on any such free kick usually will also touch the ground before recovery first so as to eliminate the fair catch option for the receiving team. Note also contrary to common misunderstanding, a fair catch need not be also a clean catch.
On any scrimmage kick by contrast, the ball can be touched down by ANY member of the kicking team unless the receiving team has touched it beyond the line of scrimmage. After some research and after looking at the following video with awful announcing in South Dakota I noticed that even in high school rules any more, almost 20 years since I played under them in college in amateur non-NCAA ball, there is no penalty for "illegal touching" just as in the NFL and NCAA. Otherwise if the receiving team muffs or touches the ball, it's anyone's ball for recovery but only possession not advancement for the kicking team.[url=http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Wind-apathy-push-punt-an-amazing-86-yards?urn=highschool-282264]http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog ... ool-282264[/url]
Otherwise if the kick does not cross the line of scrimmage, as in the case of a blocked or tipped kick, the rules are the same in both types of gridiron football.
I don't quite get it. I have asked in the NFL.com forum to see if anyone knows for sure.
In the NFL, missed field goals are scrimmaged by the opposition at the point of the kick or the 20 yard line, not the previous line of scrimmage. That's the case for striking the goal posts, missing completely or even kicking short and striking the endzone or field of play without the ball being caught in the air.
In the CFL, there are a couple possibilities for where a missed field goal is scrimmaged notwithstanding a return. If striking the goal posts, the next play scrimmages from the 25. If a rouge is conceded, the team scored against has the option of starting from from the 35 or the last line of scrimmage.
It is clearly written however you have added things to it that are not written. Perhaps some more study time is needed. Also, you also seem to know exactly what coaches are thinking. That is again; more assuming. First off, not all punters are 180 lbs. Some are former professional rugby players who are more than capable of getting involved in the middle of the action. Also, CFL kickers seem to have no problem trying to recover their kicks so does that mean that coaches don't care up north dont care about players' well-being while down south they magically do. Get real.
You see it all the time in American ball, receiving team waite's for ball to roll into endzone, for field possession, kicking team tries to "down " the ball.
Retarded thing is its an illegal play to down the ball, yet no 5 or 15 yard penalty? Interesting i guess?
Re kickers down field, Truth is American players are groomed for their specialty, where Canadian players tend to be just "Football" players, I E Borham
Weird. Can anyone think of any other illegal play that benefits the offender instead of penalizing him?
Third down on the three, ball at the hashmarks. Difficult field goal from that angle, so the offense takes a deliberate procedure call (play whistled dead) to move the ball back to improve the angle. Which is why the defence is allowed to decline the penalty, or at least decline the penalty yardage - not sure which. This happened last year (or the year before). The offence did is twice in a row, and then the officials stepped in and told them to stop. Not sure what the officials' options would have been - maybe not blowing the play dead?
And pass interference in the end zone.
Interference on a Loose Ball in the Goal Area, in some situations. For example, it's the last play of the game, Team A is ahead by 4 points, and they have the ball on their own 1 yard line. All they need to do to win is take a knee for a safety. But somehow they fumble the snap, and it gets accidentally kicked backwards past the backs - not likely, but we've seen stranger things in this league. So now the ball is bouncing around in the end zone. If Team B recovers the ball or even knocks it out of bounds, it's a touchdown and they win the game. A Team B player looks like he's going to do just that, so a Team A player grabs him from behind, and eventually Team A ends up with the ball for the safety. Team B accepts the interference penalty, and gets one play from the 10 yard line. They now have one shot from there to get a touchdown to win. So instead of an almost guaranteed touchdown, they now have a low percentage chance at one.
Great examples again Cats. Also take for example 4th and long in American football, but this could be done also on 3rd and long in Canadian football.
Though not as common as with the matter of field goals, I have seen offences take deliberately a penalty to push the distance back for a punt for sake of giving the punter more room for the “coffin corner” or to give more chance of forcing a return, but this would happen far more often in American football with the kicking team wanting to have a better chance at not punting for a touchback. The latter in my opinion the worst play in American football especially when the ball is kicked from inside the opponent’s half of the field and knowing that even I can do better to drive the ball out-of-bounds inside the 20. Also, though rare, I have even seen the defense decline this penalty to force the shorter field.
Instead of kicking for the corner though, nowadays you’ll see more often nowadays some NFL punters go for just a very high, shorter kick to force a fair catch at the 10 or inside it.
Also like in the CFL, a drop kick from scrimmage in the NFL is considered a field goal attempt.
By contrast, American football allows a drop kick also on kickoffs though I have never ever seen or heard of one.
Unlike in the CFL, a drop kick cannot be attempted in American football beyond scrimmage, but mind you though it had not been attempted in over a half-century, that rule was not actually changed for the NFL until 1997!
Its my understanding that the coffin corner has been supplanted in the NFL by the high backspin punt which all but guarantees the ball will stay in the field of play.
I don't watch too much NFL but I haven't seen a coffin corner kick in an American game in recent memory..
Yes I'd agree the attempt for the corner has been supplanted with the high backspin punt but only in part. I see the coffin corners often still in the NFL and definitely even more than ever in NCAA football. Also definitely I see many of those backspin punts fail to keep the ball in the field of play, and there is absolutely no guarantee with them.
It is hardly uncommon to see the returner near the 10yd line signal fair catch but not catch the ball, as is not required after signaling for fair catch, in an attempt to fool the cover team as the ball hits the turf and rolls into the end zone before they can touch it down. Even worse is when the backspin kick hits the turf and rolls back a few yards due to the backspin.
The type of punt chosen from the same field position, otherwise often too far out for a field goal, just depends mostly on the skills of the punter and the weather I think.
Shane Lechler (Raiders Punter) practices his coffin corner punts before every game, so presumably he plans on using it.
Are you talking CFL for both instances? Both of those situations have yardage that goes with the penalty. And when it comes to illegal procedure, they blow the whistle immediately so the defending team doesn't have the option of declining it. Same with a time count violation but if a team did it twice in a row the officials could take away a down from them if they did it again.
As for PI in the endzone, I disagree since the offence gets the ball on the 1 yard line. There's no guarantee the pass would have been caught with no PI so getting 3 shots from the 1 still makes the offending team as bad or worse off than before.
With the loose ball in the endzone, the other team still gets a shot at a touchdown because of the penalty. As you said, the TD on the fumble wouldn't have been a guaranteed thing and it is possible that Team B could still score a TD because of the penalty.
I don't think I worded my question too well. Are there any other situations where one team deliberately breaks a rule and there are no consequences to that team and they actually benefit from breaking the rule. All of the examples given have had consequences (ie penalty yardage, automatic first down, turnover) and the offending team could still be hurt for breaking the rule.
Yes, CFL for all three.
And the procedure call did happen last year, possibly the year before, and the defence was allowed to decline the yardage based on the following rule:
[u][b]RULE 4 - SCRIMMAGE[/b][/u] [b]NOTE:[/b] Where a violation under this Rule occurs before the ball has been snapped, the officials are empowered to stop the play and apply the penalty. Such penalty shall apply without option; however, the yardage may be declined. For a violation during the last three minutes of a half, see Rule 1, Section 7, Article 4.Actually, this case wouldn't really come into play in the NFL due to the goal posts location at the back of the end zone.
You're right that the other two cases aren't quite what you were asking for. Neither one is guaranteed to benefit the penalized team, although in many cases they are committing a deliberate action to take a known outcome in order to prevent a likely worse outcome. The first case, however, the deliberate procedure call to obtain a better angle for a field goal, would meet your criteria, which is why the defence is given the option to not take the yardage.