Question about non-import QBs

In any discussion about what can be done to get a starting non-import QB, it seems that everybody's solution has something to do with changing the non-import rules. Although I'm not against changing them to accommodate non-import QBs, I don't think that's either necessary or sufficient.

Various non-imports QBs have made rosters as QBs. This tells me that if a non-import QB is highly skilled, then there's a chance that he'll get a look. If a non-import can make a roster with the current rules, then it's not necessary to change the rules.

So far, though, none of these QBs have made enough of an impression to take the reins as the starting QB for any significant period of time (i.e. we haven't seen anything close to the second coming of Russ Jackson). If a non-import QB can make it onto a team currently but still isn't good enough to be a starter, then making it easier for a guy to get a QB position on a team isn't going to be sufficient either.

Changing the ratio will certainly change the situation, but I'm skeptical that it will make a big enough difference. A non-import running back does count towards the ratio, but we're not exactly awash with starter calibre RBs in the CFL. I don't expect that the situation would be much different for the QB position, which requires even more skill.

What needs be done besides just changing the non-import rules if we want to increase the chances of seeing a non-import QB rise to the rank of starter?

The reason why they don't "make an impression" is because the CIS is a lower level of play then the NCAA and they don't have the same kind of training. So these QBs need more time and work to develop (and considering the investment a QB already takes, that's pretty ugly).

Fixing that is well beyond the ability of the CFL because it has to do with how much money the CIS football programs have to spend. Changing the ratio comes up because it would give teams an incentive to actually try it rather then taking the path of least resistance.

And of these non-imports who have made rosters in the last few years, how many were higher then third on the depth chart? I can't think of a single one.

what will it take for the CIS to increase their level of play to that of the NCAA so that CIS players will have a better oportunity to become a starter in the CFL ?

I think that former CFL starters like Matt Dunnigan, Dave Dickenson, Danny, McManus, etc. would have to be recruited by the CIS as Head/QB coaches to develop Canadian QBs. QBs that have spent their entire career in the CFL might be interested.

Cleo Lemon's available :lol:

talent level, selection.

think about this.

how many teams are there in NCAA? how many football players from Minor Football/High School go to College football in the USA? think about how many football players that play in the NCAA don't ever get to start, are 2nd stringers their entire career?

the level of competition for the job and the number of available players is the big difference.

THAT and the fact that up in Canada you can't play football all year round.. and that they treat their College Football like we treat our CHL hockey.

when I was 13 and playing minor football, I never had off season training camps, pro coaches that ran a invitational.

NOW, today in my area they are only starting to do stuff like that. they're still 10 years away from being anywhere near the same level as the American off seasons.

The talent level is no where near the level in the USA.

it's taken a very long time for the CFL to even have 2 Canadian QB's invited to training camps! you can forget having a STARTING Canadian QB for any serious amount of time until they get more training, more practice time, better coaching and more competition for their jobs.

think about this.

CIS Training camp for a typical team probably has 3 QB's that come into camp, maybe 4.

now an NCAA team probably has 5 QB's plus 2 or 3 that they didn't sign because the 5 they already have are better.

I doubt we'll ever be at the same criteria and experience and talent that they are at.

Another big factor is that US QBs get started at a much earlier age and are more focused at playing QB is a lot of states. Guys playing QB in the CIS or junior football haven't spent the last 10 years of their lives learning to play QB and the quality of coaching and level of competition, as already mentioned, aren't at the same level as in the US.

However, Sinopoli is still hanging on to the 3rd QB spot in Calgary. Brannagan last year on the PR and getting in some game time at the end of the season. Sinopoli this year. I think things are on the right track, it may still take a while for a CIS QB to break through and become a regular #2 or starting QB, but it seems like its closer than it used to be and that things are headed in the right direction.

I do not believe that the Canadian Jr / uni ranks are so much a level of being lesser talent, rather lesser development compared to your southern neighbors. The US football system is comparable to that of the Canadian hockey system...simply put...impressive. US players are playing twice as many downs or more in their non-pro career. Repetition is important for any position, but most important for a QB to develop...more important than any position. Every player gains from film, and practice, and reps, but he QB needs game experience to truly develop. In the US they get more experience, and walk into the pros that much ahead.

The only rule change that should be debated is whether QBs should be treated like any other player with respect to the ratio, currently QBs aren't counted in the ratio at all, which means no incentive to develop a Canadian QB. On the other hand, that wouldn't change the need for non-import starters, which might be a disincentive for signing a Canadian QB when that non-import roster spot might be better used for another position. In the end, there has to be the potential talent worth developing over a year or two like any other QB.

People have hit on a lot of them, but they missed the elephant in the room: money. College football in the US is big money. Schools that are good at it make a fortune and that gives them big budgets to spend on staying good. That's just not true in Canada. Football in the US is what hockey is here.

The ratio exists at all because most Canadian players coming into the CFL aren't ready yet and need time to develop, far more then Americans do. Why don't we apply the same thing to the QB position when it's the one most in need of that?

These are both great points of view. At the end of the day I don't care how they do it, as long as they make a change. Aspiring canadian QBs have minimal hopes of making a career of it in comparison to their fellow amumni

PiCat: Any ideas for getting a non-import starting QB, other than ratio tweaks?
Others: Here are my ideas for ratio tweaks to encourage non-import starting QBs.
PiCat: smacks head

I do not think that ratio tweaks alone will do it. I gave my reasons in the original post. As a few other posters have pointed out, our QB development, as well as for any other position, is far behind that of the Americans. If we ever want to have a starting non-import QB, then it's my opinion that the approach to amateur development needs to change.

Other people give reasons why our development is behind. I've heard all those reasons. I guess what I was wondering is whether or not there is anything we can do about those things? Are there reasons for the reasons? Is Canadian football development really as good as it can get? Are we really content with the status quo? If not, what can be done to change it? What can be done to bring football development closer to that of NCAA or CHL? (It doesn't have to be better than those, necessarily. It just has to be good enough that our QBs have comparable skills to those that don't make the NFL).

One of the problems is money. Do we shrug our shoulders, say "It is what it is", and that's it? Do we give up that easily? How about some ideas for getting money for football development? Hockey Canada has their logo plastered on all sort chocolate bars (and all sorts of other things), and part of money from the sale of those goes to fund hockey programs. Can Football Canada do something like that?

Somebody commented that the CFL can't do anything about it. I disagree. Last year Sinopoli attended camp with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. This year he's a third stringer for Calgary. Although there's more to it than that, I'm sure it played at least a partial role. The CFL could take the 8 best QBs from CIS and send one to the training camps for each team. Every game, Hamilton has two 50/50 draws, and the money from at least one of the draws goes to minor football programs. Some of the Roughriders' mega-profits from last year were put towards amateur football (can't remember the details, but I think money went to improved facilities). Could these efforts be expanded in some way?

Can the CFL fund or organize scholarships? (i.e. would this be disallowed for ethical reasons (ex. conflict of interest between professional and amateur)?)

Sinopoli also got some personal coaching from Flutie. Is there some way that the elite amateur QBs can get access to coaching from former CFL greats?

Is the amateur program as a whole designed to develop future professionals, or are they just managing recreational players? Maybe the amateur system needs to be restructured? Ontario has competing junior programs, with OVFL and OFC having overlapping age groups. Does this help or hinder?

I don't recall which thread I read this in, but somebody suggested coaching clinics. Maybe the development is weak because the minor coaches don't have the tools they need? Can that be improved somehow?

Another problem with the CIS, besides money, is the number of hours that teams can demand from their players. I think it's limited to 10 hours per week. That limits development more than money does, I think. That brings up the question, is the CIS really where we should be looking for our non-imports? After all, Canada's hockey players are developed in the junior system, not the CIS. Should Football Canada follow suit, and use the CJFL/QJFL for development instead?

I don't know if any of these things will make a big enough difference, but like I've said a couple times already, I don't think ratio changes alone are enough.

Any comments? (I guess I'll have to wait until after the game.)

You can never bring CIS football up to the level of NCAA Division 1 ball because of the massive amounts of money involved in doing such a thing. Nor should you, the NCAA is a corrupt institution willing to prostitute itself in any way possible for the almighty US dollar. Why ruin CIS in the same manner? CIS runs a lot like the Ivy League from what I have read and that is something to be PROUD of, not to seek to ruin. Imagine REAL student-athletes... what a concept. We pretend to educate football players in America for the benefit of the NFL. You REALLY educate them and produce leaders and contributors to society. Nothing wrong with that in my view.

The CFL should start a developmental league for all Canadian talent and seek to get top quality coaching in said league. Each team should get to select a market they would NOT have any claim to CFL franchise rights for and operate a limited roster, limited pay developmental league. 8 teams round robin schedule. Purpose to get your players on the field and receiving coaching. Maybe allow imports at all positions EXCEPT QB if you want to raise the level of play your QB prospects face.

If Canada is going to be and remain a world power in hockey (and I would not expect anything less), then you have to face the fact that your top athletes are going to be concentrating on that sport. IOW your Canadian QB's are skating in the NHL. In the USA Football is King, Top Dog. Our top athletes play football. If they are exceptionally tall they play basketball. You have your eggs in the hockey basket and you do so with 1/10 the population we have, plus fewer black players as a percentage of your population.

The "second coming of Russ Jackson" can still happen if thats what you really want to bring about. in my view a developmental league is your best chance to develop and train him.

Is it really?

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It's not the CFL directly, but there's an undeniable CFL connection.

guys guys guys.

due to the fact there is not 100's of Millions of Dollars flowing into the CFL every season.. and they are still having problems getting the attendance in Toronto to respectable numbers. there are a lot of STEPS ahead of having the CFL start a developmental program for Canadian Talent.

first the CFL needs to establish success in all 9 cities (Ottawa too) they need to start having sell outs all over the country.

they need a nice big FAT TV contract from TSN..

they need to get the talent level of Canadians up higher first before they even think about it.

but that only happens by having Minor Football programs all over the country improved by having the local and provincial govts assist them in financial areas so that 1. Fees will drop so more kids can afford to play 2. start off season training camps for players. 3. stop having idiots who don't know anything about football being the coaches for these minor football teams.

you have to have coaches that actually know something about the game so they can properly develop these kids from the age of 9 up. they need to create a family atmosphere and a sense of belonging to these kids.

they need to start having a large # of High School leagues smarten up and increase the # of football games they play in a season from 4 or 5 to 8 or 9.

it's ridiculous, for example in Edmonton. Many High School teams have 4 or if they're lucky 5 games all bloody year!

so in 3 years of their HS playing career they get 12 or 15 games total. not exactly much to go by is it?

in the USA you have a lot more games. I think they play like 10 games in a season?

can anyone help me with that?

so you have in some schools 4 seasons to play (gr 9 to 12) so if you're really good you can play 40 games in your entire HS life.

so now you look at an NCAA school who is looking for prospects to bring to their school.

hmmm... now 9 times out of 10 who are you going to ask to come play for you?

A Canadian who's played a total of 15 games in 3 years? or an American who's got 30-40 games in 3-4 years of playing?

twice as many games experience and actually playing in front of crowds of more than 100 fans.

pretty sure they're going to take the American HS kid.

you have in Canada in most of the country about 10 weeks of playing time before the winter becomes way too difficult.

since School doesn't start till the beginning of September, you already lose 1 to 2 weeks with camp and practicing to get ready to play.

so now you have 8 weeks. that includes playoffs.

so that means for 4 lucky teams they will have 5 regular season games and anywhere from 1 to 3 playoff games.

majority of teams in Edmonton get 4 games.

that is NOT ENOUGH! how can you get any sort of playing experience in 4 lousy games?

High Schools across the country, will NEVER take football as serious to the point where they'll actually get their butts in gear.. have teams start their training camps a few weeks before school starts.. so that Game 1 of the season is the first week of School. and then you can play 8 games in a season. and then have your 2 or 3 playoff games in November.


there isn't enough money from the Governments to be able to go HS Football, let alone other HS sports for them to be able to afford all this.