PGA Tour vs LIV Golf

Excellent post but The Masters, as such with the histor, such history can’t and should never be ignored or “cancelled” as the new terminology is, and I know you agree with this unequivocally.
I love The Masters but for me it’s the lowest ranking of the majors due to it’s history of exclusiveness and “invitees” and some might say “down right racism” but that being said, I suppose who cares, right, if LIV makes one of their tournaments able to win a billion buckaroos, well, well then who cares at all about the PGA Tour and their “majors”. “Majors” then becomes you can win a billion greenbacks playing golf. That then would be the new defintion of a true “major”, I guess since you can bet every last top ranked golfer in the world will be at such a tournament if they can qualify or are “invited”. :wink:

I know, LIV will allow, if you win one of their “majors”, access to what Star Trek has done here, sounds pretty good,eh? Risa, the “pleasure planet”. Greenbacks can’t compete with this me thinks. :rofl:

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Here I don’t see it the same way. Via the merger if completed at long last, the value of the brand and event of the existing majors will be increased and not matched simply by some huge investment somewhere new in an irrigated desert or otherwise.

Now who is to say what will be the case decades from now, but nope, in my lifetime we’ll still have the existing majors with enhanced value and prestige around the world of golf.

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But, will there be a merger? We don’t know this at this time. We have no idea what the Saudis next move on this will be or their true intentions. I say the Saudis could bring the PGA Tour down to their feet begging for mercy. Money counts as we have seen. Time will tell. I can tell you, if I have a choice to win a billion greenbacks for a tourney at the same time a PGA tourney is “just” going to make me $10 mill to win, guess which tourney I’ll be attending that week? Major or otherwise, couldn’t give a rats you know what. Think about it, 4 days of tourney time for a chance to will a billion in a field of some 160 give or take. If I qualify, I’m there, couldn’t care less about a green jacket thingy I’ll tell you.

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Good info. I love Lee Trevino. Didn’t realize that he was 84 already.

One small correction. It wasn’t co founder Bobby Jones that continued the prejudice and inane elite practices of the Augusta National Golf Club. That was co founder Clifford Roberts. He was infamous for his prejudice. He had more than a few things wrong in his head and shot himself in the head on the golf course in the 1970’s.

The Masters was originally created as a tournament for sportswriters to play in, but all of the top US players immediately attended and it never really became what was intended. Bobby Jones was a well respected liberal (for his time) human being and unfortunately suffered from a rare neurological disorder that put him in a wheelchair for decades. He died in 1971 and was no more than a figurehead for the Masters for years prior and certainly by the time Trevino could have played there. He was also arguably the greatest golfer ever, winning the grand slam (4 majors in one year) in 1930 and then retiring at age 28. Not even Nicklaus or Tiger could pull off the grand slam.

More on Bobby Jones below.

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Actually the British Open is worse at present. They still play it at some courses that don’t allow women members. The Masters does have a racist history which I have commented on several times in this and Masters threads.

Other prejudices in sports are even more recent. The PGA Championship was moved from Shoal Creek in heavily racist Birmingham in the early 90’s because the club didn’t allow black members. Many venues in different sports have been ruled out as a result of racism, most recently heavily racist Arizona losing a Super Bowl because they refused to honour Martin Luther King day.

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And this which I found surprising:
“Jones drew inspiration from a host of notable women he competed with…”
https://www.anwagolf.com/en_US/news/articles/2023-03-27/bobby_jones_a_champion_of_womens_golf.html

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It looks like the two tours have been talking a lot lately. One article I read said 4-5 times over the last two weeks. We can only hope the semi merger talks can be completed and completed soon. Meanwhile we are stuck with another asterisk major this week, especially if Rahm can’t go, which it looks like may be the case.

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This reads like a lot of words, including from Tiger and Rory, but stating hardly anything novel. What say you?

Wow does this merger just drag on and on. I bet we still hear about it in December.

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The reality is there will probably be a PGA tour and a Liv tour for a few more years, even if a deal is struck with the PIF, there’s players that don’t want to come back, don’t want to play more, and aren’t interested in being part of the PGAT. It will cost them majors and other things, but once again, it’s their choice.

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The Canadian Open was viewed by a Billion people world wide . LIV viewers are friends and relatives of the players in the 3 round version of Saudi golf .

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I completely disagree with your view of sport and competition. I always like to see best on best. And the LIV golfers didn’t choose to miss majors. That was decreed by the Putin Golf Association (PGA). Ironically the PGA monopoly found tens of millions of dollars in their back pocket to pay the players, which trailblazers like Phil were complaining about all along. If the players opposed to LIV are so righteous and principled they should refuse to accept this money, which came to them only as a result of LIV. I don’t see any of them doing that.

I don’t see how any sport that doesn’t allow for best on best to play each other in the biggest tournaments or playoffs can be considered legitimate. What we have now is simply an artificial construct for the majors. Really no different than if I invented rules and used “Jon’s golf ranking” to arbitrarily determine who gets to play in the majors. I could heavily fix it in favour of LIV rather than the PGA Tour, which also wouldn’t be right.

You also take a position, whether you outright say it or not, against the freedom of an individual to accept better employment when offered and to do what they think is best for their family. As you allude to, not everyone will make the same choice, but in my view the concept of penalizing someone for their choice is draconian and totalitarian.

I also point out again that the same concept, or what I might call LIV football, basketball and hockey in the 60’s and 70’s resulted in mergers eventually and a stronger league in each case. Canada had 3 and now 2 more NHL teams because of LIV hockey. Why would you be against that? If your view had been adopted we wouldn’t be watching the Oilers in the Stanley Cup Final right now. Players such as Hull, Howe, Hedberg, Nilsson, Napier, Messier and Gretzky, to name but a few, would never have played in the NHL after they joined the WHA. Sorry, but I view competition as healthy rather than something to be mercilessly squelched in favour of a monopoly at all costs, a curious position to take in my view.

I don’t know what the reasoning is behind your position and am curious to know. It can’t be the Saudi connection because you are a CFL fan and the CFL is also Saudi funded. I didn’t even know that when I started this thread, but many others made posts providing proof of that. Not to mention ignoring the fact that we all generally drive cars and own smartphones or mobile phones and/or computers and televisions and too many other possessions to count that is possible only because of China, a country far worse than Saudi Arabia by any measure.

As a result I do not understand the basis for your position.

I was not aware that the Canadian Open was viewed by one billion people and am skeptical of that number. Do you have a source for that? If so then that is great. If true the US Open this week would likely be viewed by some 2 billion people, numbers that would exceed even the Super Bowl.

I will be juggling viewership tonight between the US Open, the Stanley Cup Final which includes the LIV equivalent to hockey Oilers and my Bombers playing in the Saudi funded CFL.

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Gonna be fully transparent here, i’m not reading your entire post. Its too long. But i see you don’t understand my position so i’ll state it again.

I have no issue with Liv Golf
I have no issue with Saudi money
I have no issue with the players that chose to join Liv Golf
I believe Phil was right - and his move did lead to change on the PGAT
I will continue to pull for my favourite golfers in majors regardless of tour (Big fan of Koepka and more recently a more matured Bryson)

I have a problem with the golfers that made an informed decision to go to a tour that is not awarded OWGR points, and then complain that they’re not getting OWGR points (or by extension, not qualifying for majors).

I agree with the premise that they are an invitational tour and any ranking points in any system would be unfairly awarded to players that can’t/don’t get relegated and has no ability to earn their way into.

The majors have adjusted to the best of their ability by offering invitations to some, but we will never have a perfect system. We have what we have, an in my opinion it’s still compelling golf.

In some ways I actually prefer this world where rival tours play on their own and come together at the majors - it adds a bit of drama we didn’t have before.

I’d repeat more of my views but our opinions differ so much on the matter i’m just not interested in debating it, as neither of us are going to persuade the other.

Whether it be pro sports or any other business, my understanding is that competition is generally a very good thing and governments even in capitalistic countries try and prevent monopolies and encourage competition. Of course, say even in a traditional business setting, and it can be argued that professional sports is not what we’d call a traditional business perhaps, if you have 5 businesses on more or less an equal level or playing field, not all 5 can have the best marketing managers for instance. This goes without saying.
The thing is in traditional business, if you have 5 different companies all making TVs for example, this should make the price of the TVs go down with all having the same or near the same quality. But in sports, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t say a LIV Tour which is forcing the PGA Tour to ante up more prize money, make the price of tickets for the consumer attending higher? That would seem to go agains’t the traditional business model.

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I agree with a lot of your positions but am mostly upset that LIV exists because I see the players going there the same way I would see players retire. And having a bunch of players that I like (for example I also like Koepka and Bryson and Rahm) play in the LIV format is the same as telling me they retired because it’s not interesting golf to me at all.

And LIV being the cause of this “retirement equivalent” makes me not want them to survive.

The Hamilton Spectator is the source . No doubt the U S Open will have a huge world audience .

Like I said, I never would have expected such a large audience. Did they offer any comparison to the audiences for regular PGA Tour events in the US? I would have thought that the Canadian Open was less watched than other regular events, but maybe it has a larger audience because it is more international?

This guy gets it. :point_up:

Adult people made adult choices.

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Nonsense. I don’t agree with your ongoing half positions.

You have yet to explain how the fact that golf is broken at present in the sense that there are no best on best competitions left and how this is good for the game or what LIV has to do with qualifying for the Olympics. It’s supposed to include the best and it doesn’t. Full stop. Terrible for the sport.

You are entitled to your opinion, but please don’t pretend you are anywhere near neutral on the LIV vs PGA issue.

At least the most popular and #1 golfer in the world plays for LIV. The voodoo math of the PGA Tour and their exclusionary policies does nothing to change this.

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I gave my opinions in post 1433 and I don’t believe they are half positions at all. My comments about Bryson above very clearly align to my views below.

Your post is getting personal and I’d appreciate if you’d stick to your opinions on golf and not me.