PGA Tour vs LIV Golf

The simple truth that you are looking for is that if you want to boycott Saudi money (for whatever reason), you will not be watching any major sport from any country. That includes PGA, LPGA, all soccer and even CFL.

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My true love is safe unsoiled. As I follow the NHL

According to this article, even the NHL is not “ unsoiled”. As Hit ‘em Hard said, there is no major sport without Saudi connections/sponsorship of some kind, including the CFL. Your herring is even redder.

https://www.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-lobbied-kobe-bryant-mlb-mls-sports-project-2019-9

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More conflict. This time between Matt Fitzpatrick and the increasingly unlikable Rory McIlroy pertaining to next year’s Ryder Cup.

(McIlroy, Europeans address Ryder Cup status for LIV players Rory McIlroy Europeans address Ryder Cup status for LIV players - TSN.ca)

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Unlikeable by you because you are pro LIV and anti PGA

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No. You are misreading my position. I am definitely pro free enterprise and anti monopoly and therefore not a big fan of what they PGA is doing. I think all people should be able to work for whomever they want and earn the most money possible without punitive repercussions. I am not wanting the PGA destroyed but do not subscribe to their position that they are by right the only voice of professional golf and should never be challenged. If the NFL took that position they would be seeking to shut down the CFL, XFL, USFL and any other competition.

I say this about Rory, someone I formerly liked, because he is intent on ruining professional golf and cares nothing about the good of the game. Not long ago he was one of the voices in favour of a sit down between the PGA and LIV. Now he appears intent on destroying both and continues to pressure other PGA players to follow his lead. That is not good for golf. Fitzpatrick is the voice of reason in this article.

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Thanks Jon for keeping this going.
In brief could you state again what your position is. I'm sure you been clear on this before but I've lost the plot.
is it as simple as Grover states/

Edit I posted before you replied to Grover.

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Hopefully I have answered your question.

I have been consistent from the start in saying that the two sides need to resolve this. Instead they continue to argue (mostly the PGA dissing LIV but Norman can dish it out as well). None of this is good for the game. The PGA is casting a pall over the LIV players and preventing them from exercising their rights and freedoms to play professionally wherever they want and “punishing” them by excluding them from tour events, the President’s and Ryder Cups and the majors. At the same time they are shooting themselves in the foot by weakening their own fields, the two Cups I mentioned and ultimately the majors.

None of this is good for golf as a whole. I for one won’t care who wins the next major or this month’s President’s Cup if the best players are not present, and they won’t be later this month.

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Question : What league allows their players to play where they want or to play in a league that is a direct competitor? Do you think the difference is because golfers are free agents.?

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Jon, Have you even watched LIV to say it is even with the PGA?
I haven't because it isn't on TV
IMHO, this is like the WHA to the NHL,
Going after a few star NHL players to try to give credibility to their new League.
IMHO
This is more of Greg Norman trying to get his pound of flesh from the PGA and he has the most deep pocketed investors behind him
I like Mickleson but his best years are behind him and he seems to have it out for the PGA
I also like Dustin Johnson but bailing out on the Canadian RBC Open the day before he was to tee off when RBC sponsored him for years took me by surprise
Guys like DeChambeau, Koepka, Reed I never really liked so there is that.
I can see the older guys going over, It pays way better than the seniors circuit
BUT
IT'S NOT THE PGA!
That is my take
Next The LIV will be hanging out trying to sign University golfers to huge money contracts

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Answer: The CFL. They allow their players to play in the NFL.

But you are correct about free agency, or more accurately independent contractors. The big sports leagues in North America at least sign players to contracts binding them to teams and dictating where they can or cannot play and whether they can skydive, bungee jump, motocross race, etc. Except for football, these contracts are guaranteed and therefore such provisions are reasonable. Even the NFL commonly has guaranteed money in a contract in whole or in part, especially for the better players.

PGA Tour golfers are independent contractors that are not guaranteed a cent, at least until LIV came along. LIV golfers have varying guarantees depending on player status and performance. The PGA Tour, as a result of LIV, will now in the future guarantee money to some degree to all players as noted earlier in this thread when they changed this a few weeks ago. That is also dependent on status and performance.

LIV is a league like the other major sports. They have contracts with all their players. They probably have clauses prohibiting their players from engaging in dangerous activities like other sports with contracts, although I don’t know that for sure. They do not prohibit players from playing in any other golf tournament when a LIV event is not taking place. Unique in all of sports as far as I am aware, although LIV is a league they treat their players as independent contractors in this sense. You must show up when your team is playing, but otherwise are free to play wherever you like.

The PGA Tour is a non tax paying registered charity. They do not have contracts with their “independent contractors”. They do, however, have rules that all players must follow and are forced to follow. This includes seeking permission to play elsewhere and signing over all rights to profit from their image to the PGA Tour. In this digital age Phil and a few others considered this to be a draconian and egregious requirement. Like all PGA rules, this was not negotiated between the Tour and the players, but rather imposed on them. I don’t know a lot about these on line images and cards and the like (I actually know almost nothing) but understand that some of them sell for huge amounts and that some basketball players in particular are making a lot of money off of this. Phil wanted to control his own image and have more of a say in his schedule. After all he has contributed to the Tour over the decades and being designated a lifetime PGA member, you would think this was a reasonable position.

A charity that guarantees no money to anyone is clearly in violation of anti trust laws and the tour was so found to be in the 1990’s. I think that will occur again but litigation will take time and won’t bring the parties any closer together.

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The NFL coerced the CFL to allow it’s players to break it’s contract early with CFL teams when the NFL “loaned” the CFL money to stay afloat in the late 90’s post US expansion. The “loan” came with attachments if the CFL want a bailout from the NFL. That was the main condition in the deal

I will answer the points I can.

I have not watched LIV because it is not available on cable and I doubt many people have. I have never said that it is even with the PGA. That is in fact impossible. It is a start up league and is different. It is targeted at a younger crowd. It has unique features like teams every week that the PGA does not have. It will get better. I don’t know if it will succeed but punishing the mavericks who are willing to try is abhorrent in my view. Remember how Bobby Hull wasn’t allowed to play for Team Canada in 1972? Same thing. That is a decision that is widely scorned in hindsight.

Greg Norman is the present CEO of the league but LIV was formed long before his involvement. Remember that Jack was about to sign on for that position until his own company sued him. Norman came up with the World Golf events idea and essentially the Fed Ex Cup. Maybe LIV will ultimately be successful like those events are or maybe not. All I am saying is that in a capitalistic society LIV should be free to try whatever they like without draconian sanctions against their players. It is not without irony that the Saudis are backing freedom while the PGA Tour is backing totalitarianism.

I just commented on Mickelson’s beefs with the PGA Tour above so won’t repeat that. They are reasonable. And he has balls.

I love Phil and Dustin as well. I have noted before, however, that Dustin didn’t bail on anything. He was banned from the Canadian Open by the PGA Tour and RBC dropped him. Not his fault or decision. All he did was announce he would be joining LIV and playing in their first event a few weeks later. I don’t see how any of that is on him. I wonder what Wayne thinks of the treatment he received and have a good guess in mind as I doubt Wayne would have appreciated being told he couldn’t make too much money or sell his image.

You have the freedom to like or not like golfers or any athletes or sport and to watch or not to watch. No argument there. I certainly don’t like Reed or Garcia.

And LIV has already been courting top college and amateur golfers. I can’t remember details but have read a few articles. I remember that one of the top college guys refused their offer but a couple of others have taken it. I expect this mirrors the PGA Tour players. Some will take the offer while others won’t. I don’t count Tiger either way because he can’t play anymore and is already a billionaire. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done if LIV came along when he was in his 20’s.

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Via its social channels, the tournament released a statement following Johnson’s announcement that read, “Together with our partners at RBC, we are disappointed to learn at this late stage that Dustin Johnson has made the decision to play the LIV Golf event. As a past RBC Canadian Open champion, Canadian golf fans were looking forward to D.J.’s return this year.

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So already, the new PGA season kicks off tomorrow from California

6 Canadians :canada: in the field

Adam Svensson
Nick Taylor
Corey Conners
Taylor Pendrith
Mac Hughes
Michael Gligic

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My point was that he wasn’t allowed to play. Since the first person declared for LIV ( I think that may have been DJ but not sure) and even prior to that, the PGA Tour gave notice to all players that they would be automatically suspended if they joined LIV or played in a LIV event. He wasn’t permitted to play in the Canadian Open.

So soon? Where has the time gone? I guess this is the last wraparound season.

Ummm
He wasn’t allowed to play in the RBC by LIV
because he signed a contract to play the LIV Tournament which was the same weekend
The RBC did not block him from playing
He took the money and lots of it,
Can’t blame him, it is what it is

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Yes it is what it is.

To be clear, the PGA Tour told their members in February I think that they would be suspended indefinitely from all PGA run tournaments if they signed with LIV. So DJ was suspended for the Canadian Open as soon as he announced. We don’t know if he would have played or not had he not been suspended but I believe he was entered.

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Yes, I agree, for I am against both the space-time continuum and the wraparound green configuration.