PGA Tour vs LIV Golf

Speaking as the greatest professional golfer on the planet, I've decided to take the high road and skip the LIV Tournament altogether due to LIV Sponsor's proven utter disregard for human rights and moral decency.

My own sponsors, Killco, Fox News and Torture Inc. have my back on this decision. Thank you and good night.

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Hi sir. Are you okay? What drinks or substances do you enjoy regularly, and what do you enjoy about them? I ask because I not only care, but we sure are a curious bunch here and just want to know.

Thank you for taking my call tonight. I'll go on and hang up and listen.

On my planet we absorb fluids through our gill slits. So I guess the "drinks or substances" that I enjoy regularly are the ones that I'm swimming through at the moment. Which is probably why we have the death penalty as a deterrent for urinating in the pool.

Thank you for this important reminder and notice. We just opened the pool where I live. I'm sorry, you are not going to be allowed into it sir.

All the same, except for the part on gills you sound mostly normal, and I certainly hope that's some good hooch tonight too.

Well if I'm not invited to your pool opening then there's no way I'm inviting you to step into a wormhole and visit my neck of the Galaxy anytime soon. You can just forget it Earthling.

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Well not all the time. My brother-in-law turn down an opportunity to work in Saudi Arabia because of 9/11 and the poor working conditions in that country. Some Canadians see the big picture, my brother-in-law included


Ban them. Let the banned players take it to federal court. As Bobby Clarke said about a player saying there was a "restraint of trade" in his contract dispute. He and golfers aren't selling wheat. They are independent contractors


In 2003 in Washington DC, for I was there that very day in that area safe though not terribly far in Bethesda, Maryland in an office building, I remember hearing chatter about all the great opportunities working for various contractors in the Middle East.

I was not qualified in great part, but the training was available.

Then like for your brother-in-law came the reality check even though I was young and single and in a position to pursue the opportunities.

Perhaps others here can share more, but when you work overseas or offshore in international waters in the private sector, especially in a developing area or an area where any given semblance of democracy is entirely not the case, you are not protected by labour laws as we know them especially when things go very wrong.

That fact was enough for me to make up my mind.


Good for him but I suspect he is in the minority. Even an already wealthy Jack Nicklaus at the age of 82 had to be sued by his company before he turned down $100 million. I don’t think many people would turn down that kind of money and the players entered next week will make way more than those playing the Canadian Open or any PGA tournament for that matter. I can certainly understand the temptation.


Depending on how the PGA executes the ban and upon whom, the PGA can also invite additional litigation and it's not like our legal system does not have plenty of qualified lawyers who would chomp at the bit to represent affected parties, American or foreign, and pursue any of those charges as well.

On top of restraint of trade, the PGA could get into such areas as unlawful discrimination plus the Saudis have numerous friends in and around Washington DC and Houston to help put the heat on in numerous ways that are not often readily known and certainly not open.

The PGA better have some good advisors, including those who understand also Saudi Arabia and its relationship with the G7 nations that dates heavily back to World War II.


I agreed with my brother-in-law so the minority is growing.

Jack Nicklaus is a hypocrite that denied Casey Martin the right to compete in the PGA using a golf cart under the US Disability Act when he testified in Court that all golfers should walk the course. Martin had legitimate mobility issues. Nicklaus might as well have shoved Casey Martin down a flight of stairs

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Can’t agree. They would have a hard time meeting the legal definition of independent contractor at the best of times. Banning players just proves that they are not truly independent contractors as the PGA wouldn’t have that power if they were. Come to think of it, they are messing with anti trust concepts as well. Even though players can play LIV tournaments and some others and 3 of the majors and make money from endorsements, it all stems from their membership on the PGA tour. That is their main job. If they ban them that will only strengthen their competition as more and more players defect from behind the PGA’s iron curtain.

DJ probably won’t be able to play the Ryder Cup. It will be interesting to see if the Europeans sanction their Ryder Cup players such as Sergio Garcia who is playing next week or whether Louis Oosthuizen, who is also playing, will be barred from the President’s Cup team.

I think the PGA doesn’t have the best interests of golf in mind, rather only the best interests of the PGA. There is a reason that Phil Mickelson has been quietly leading the charge against their medieval governance of the game for several years. The PGA’s treatment of Greg Norman has also been appalling. I also think that both Norman and Mickelson are a lot brighter than the politburo that runs the PGA.


This matter now reminds me of a huge class action case that Fedex settled at great loss across 20 states. Go figure the legal trouble started in 2005! Perhaps for those going into the legal weeds, there could be some ready precedent here and in similar such cases.

I had heard about this matter for the first time in 2015 from a co-worker who was a former Fedex "independent contractor" who most certainly was not in the end.

In 2014 in Kansas, quite the pro-business state as well mind you,

The courts largely based their decisions on the FedEx independent contractor agreement, which FedEx had drafted itself and used across all its Ground Division drivers. The Kansas Supreme Court wrote a scathing critique of the contract, stating that FedEx’s independent contractor agreement was a “‘brilliantly drafted contract creating the constraints of an employment relationship with [the drivers] in the guise of an independent contractor model—because FedEx not only has the right to control, but has close to absolute actual control over [the drivers] based upon interpretation and obfuscation.’”

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Good find Paolo. That is what I was saying. I wasn’t aware of this case but am aware of Canadian law and cases which is probably fairly similar.

Aside from employees challenging this status, more commonly it is challenged by CRA or in the US by the IRS. Both tax authorities lose a lot of money from the presence of independent contractors (IC)and the write offs they are permitted. Therefore meeting the legal definition of an IC is difficult. Being controlled does not equal IC and if the PGA takes away the primary job of its members because they refuse to give them any freedom, that doesn’t equal IC either.

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What about the pro wrestlers in the WWE and AEW? They are in the sports entertainment business. They haven't received any settlement from Vince, not that I know of

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Fine. Let 'em go to Court The PGA has tons of money, Time and better lawyers to drag this in the courts for a very long time. Golfers playing careers aren't infinite.

The PGA has the four world prestige golfing titles on the planet while LIV players can play for the bonesaw tourney with blood money as cash prizes.

The LIV players will be pariahs in the sporting world and general public. If I'm DJ, i'd wouldn't dine out for a very long time. He'd be the Amber Heard of the Golf scene

I don’t think the PGA will have any edge in lawyers. The players are worth $10 million or more each, some of them a lot more.

The PGA only has influence on one major the PGA championship and the Ryder Cup. The US and British Opens and the Masters are run independently and the PGA has no
say whatsoever over how they are run or who can play.

In my opinion, as I was saying earlier, the PGA is an oppressive organization full of politics and favouritism. I just don’t think they are being smart. I agree with you that I don’t expect LIV to amount to much and I am not interested in it. I think the PGA would have been better off not trying to bully the players and letting the league succeed or die on its own.

LIV has way more money than the PGA and could even fund any litigation on behalf of the players and probably will. I just don’t understand why the PGA is picking a fight here. They have public opinion on their side right now so why the need to act the bully? Unlike the USFL, LIV won’t go away unless they want to. Unlike the USFL they have more money than the NFL or Fox or NBC or CBS or almost any entity in the world with a $500 billion pot to draw on. I fear that the PGA with its high handed behavior is giving or will give the upstart tour more credibilty and publicity than they would have been able to achieve on their own.

Dave, I of course don’t know what is going to happen but I do find it fascinating in the sense that never before in the history of sports that I am aware of has there been an upstart league with far more financial resources than the established league. LIV could buy the PGA ten times over. I had always thought it would probably fail but now I am not so sure. It would I think take a lot for me to have any serious interest in LIV, but I don’t agree with the PGA’s high handed tactics of essentially blackmail to prevent it’s “independent contractors” from playing where they want to.

I expect the shit will hit the fan after next week’s inaugural tournament as you would think that the PGA would have to act immediately on handing down sanctions as there is a tournament the following week that the LIV players could enter. This has the potential to be one of the biggest stories in sports of the year, at least away from the playing surface, in Notth America, Australia, Asia and Europe. We’ll see.


I will add some levity to this thread with this

Robin Williams on golf (be prepared this is Hillarious and a language alert)


I am not seeing it your way.

Rather than being militantly litigious much as Fedex, Wal-Mart, and Amazon as have been down such roads and have had it handed to them, right now in a quite adverse domestic and global political environment, the PGA would fare better to be reasonable yet still be kings of the game with more time to adjust to the global landscape as is happening with or without them.

Being militantly litigious against a labour class action suit, whether you win or lose, is also extremely expensive beyond the legal fees.

The players can easily go earn a decent living otherwise and still sue the PGA for damages - most will prevail in the end in that matter and play golf most anywhere just fine.

No company or organization has 100% control over the livelihood of another in the US. Those days are long gone recently long after they were supposed to be long gone after the New Deal during President FDR's time.

Hey, Hadwin :canada: just got a hole in one at the Memorial !!!!!!!!!!!!

All 4 Canadians made the cut!