Perkins: Tory’s the man to save Pan Am stadium deal http://tinyurl.com/29rbf62
It makes perfect sense, thats why the Pan Am Committee will never go for it Why save money when you can spend millions more on a track thats not needed or wanted. Typical Liberal evil agendas
Well how about that!
AKT and I agree on the Dave Perkins suggestion.
I have been wondering all along if some kind of solution from "none of the above" would appear.
This one could very well be it. I don't know where it first came from but it seems do-able without much fuss. And we would still get the IWS perk of not having a track between the stadium and the field.
If there is some re-shuffling of the money, the Tiger-Cats could get a stadium without an investment.
The only question is.....can the Tiger-Cats still get the revenue they need?
Maybe this idea could break the log-jam and start serious negotiations about who gets what from the revenue.
Nothing like a 6 week deadline to focus the collective minds.
This idea merits looking into. Getting rid of the expenses of the track, building and removing after the games, could help reduce expenses. A soccer pitch is pretty close in size to a CFL football field so good sightlines good be maintained. Couple this with the bike racing enthusiasts looking to move their facilities out by Mac and not occupying space at whatever stadium site is chosen and, as stated above, this might be a step towards a solution. This also ensures that the stadium would another use that could contribute money to the coffers after all is said and done with the games.
Would it not also eliminate the need for a warm up track thus freeing up more space?
This actually makes a lot of sense. I don't see any downside here. Congrats to the Toronto Star for finally getting something right.
Hopefully they don't apply the same logic and put the soccer games at BMO ...
I agree it makes a lot of sense to switch Hamilton to hosting soccer instead of t&f. One wonders if the person who dreamed up commuting the t&f athletes from Toronto to Hamilton for their events ever drives the QEW? Seems like such a waste of the athletes' time to be stuck in transit. I'd also love to see road cycling come here. They could do the Worlds course again and tie it in with races at the velodrome.
But I disagree with his statement that a west harbour stadium is totally unworkable...
July 1 deadline to resolve stadium stalemate
May 18, 2010 John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectatorhttp://www.thespec.com/News/Business/article/771286
A facilitator to referee the Pan Am stadium dispute
will be unveiled tomorrow for approval
by a special meeting of city councillors.
The two sides agreed on the individual yesterday following
a new deadline to find a solution to the stadium standoff.
Troop said...that there is general interest in the Games
by the business community across the Golden Horseshoe,
but it "would take something concrete so you can
engage partners to look at the investment opportunities."
Later, Troop said the host corporation
is keeping a stadium fallback decision
in mind in case Hamilton can't deliver.
...but if it doesn't work in Hamilton, [u]the Varsity Centre
at the University of Toronto might be the Games' Plan B.
It could be turned into a 15,000
-seat stadium with temporary seating.
And it is about 10 minutes from the athletes village,
not the 45-minute trip Hamilton represents.
Also, talk around the amateur sports world has
tossed out York University as a possible fallback.
Troop said Toronto 2015 "has not
engaged yet (with fallback partners),
but we're pretty confident there will be
options to fill the needs of the Games."
Have to admit it makes sense to me as well at least on the surface. It would be good to upgrade the Univ of Toronto facility as their sports and athletic facilities and programs have taken a beating in recent years due to what I think is or has been low consideration from the people who operate the University towards these aspects.
And then the stadium here won't have a track which most TigerCat fans don't want having been used to probably the tightest stadium in the league for such a long time.
Here is another interesting quote by Troope to the National Post
If a deal does not get done, the Pan Am Games organizing committee may opt to move the stadium to another city.
“When you look at the history of games, whether it be (the) Vancouver (Olympics) or elsewhere, the bid books change, things go different places, and that’s for the good of the games,? Troop said.
Let's hope the mayor stops playing games and that Bob Young shows up with the money when the time comes... It is very clear Troope wants a location picked in stone and a commitment for the money by July 1st. I don't think there is any way in Hell this gets done. six weeks to find 50 million in a low/slow return investment not gonna happen IMO.
It will be interesting to know what the plan B is... Rogers Centre ??? The Mississauga ArgoCats ???
John Tory would be an excellent choice as facilitator.
John Tory, past commissioner of the CFL and the chair of Toronto's City Summit Alliance said
“I would be happy to help out in some way if I could,’’
when he heard that his name has been suggested.
“I think it is absolutely essential we sort this out.
I am a huge believer in the Pan Am Games
for the good of sport and the region
and a huge believer in the CFL
(which) means a healthy Ticat team,
which means a new stadium.
SURELY we can get this sorted out.’’
David Perkins says the Pan Am Games appears to be becoming
the most expensive embarrassment since the Big Owe
and he thinks the west harbour is a totally unworkable plan.
David Perkins gets my vote as John Tory's deputy facilitator.
It simply makes no sense to ignore the track facility at the U of T,
given the relatively short commute for the athletes.
With 6,000 seats already in place, another 10,000 temporary seats
could be erected cheaply...with minimal traffic disruption.
That way, the stadium would be much cheaper to build
and would be ready for CFL by repainting the field.
Without an eight-lane running track, the stadium
would be much more cozy for CFL football,
plus dramatically less expensive to both build and convert.
Not having a track would be popular with a lot of CFL fans.
Imagine making use of a top-notch facility right on the subway line,
while the Ticats, at least, get a new football-friendly stadium
without the costs involved with installing and removing a running track.
This makes so much sense that surely even politicians can figure it out.
Hamilton thus retains a major showcase event
— the Tiger-Cats get their new stadium
and the largest group of athletes won’t have a stupidly
long commute from the athletes’ village in downtown Toronto.
That’s the first — and easiest — of a handful of solutions needed to solve the mess our politicians
and overmatched organizers are making of these Games.
It also needs to be made soon.
A staff briefing to Hamilton city council from earlier this year
shows one of the options is a “do-nothing’’ approach
by which Hamilton would withdraw from the Pan Ams entirely
(and thus face endless maintenance and/or
replacement costs for ancient Ivor Wynne Stadium).
The key is let's make sure Hamilton or Hamilton area close-by gets the stadium and without the track, that would be what most people want. I realize the TigerCats say July 1 isn't enough time for anyone to get the necessary real estate people involved in a plan. But too bad. If the TigerCats decide it's a no go by July 1 but thats a dealine HOSTCO wants, then the city should build the stadium where they want, a nice 15,000 seater and let the chips fall where they may after that.
It would be a shame for Hamilton to lose out on the stadium particularly if there won't be a track around it. The stadium may have to be enlarged afterwards should there be some buy in by the TigerCats, real estate people etc.
Of course this still doesn't solve the issue of where best to put the stadium for long term expansion and growth.
Real estate developers don't jump into things overnight,
they need time to do their assessment of the location.
that's why, imo, the Rheem site looks less and less likely
to be the location for this Pan Am/Tiger Cat stadium. [see below]
Also, if a big commercial developer gets very interested
then, imo, Mr Troop will give them more time for study,
the shovels don't have to be in the ground until 2012
If the TigerCats decide it's a no go by July 1 but thats a dealine HOSTCO wants, then
the city should build the stadium where
they want, a nice 15,000 seater
and let the chips fall where they may after that.
Not without the Pan Am Games money.
HostCo would move the stadium to Toronto in a heartbeat.
Are you suggesting the City take 102 million
dollars from the Hamilton Community fund?
Everyone is feeling warm and fuzzy about how things are going
and now you come out throw a wet blanket over things, Earl.
From the City Staff's report to City Council
Risk and Complexity
– high complexity and risky due to site
assembly complexities, remediation exposure,
possible required road closures
and required assurances to mitigate nuisance impacts
on adjacent residential neighbourhood.
Timing of completion of these activities in time for
construction and games use is important to consider.
legal and planning complexities
due to Setting Sail appeal.
[the official City plan for that area.]
– Higher up-front capital costs
due to land acquisition costs, potential
remediation, and demolition costs.
Minimal on-site parking would
reduce that up-front cost
and greater return on investment
from regeneration impacts anticipated.
– Site is viable and feasible
so long as property acquisition issues
can be overcome in a timely enough manner
to accommodate Pan Am Games scheduling.
and as the report says
Otherwise, alternative location may be required
Everyone is feeling warm and fuzzy about how things are going
and now you come out throw a wet blanket over things, Earl
Not at all ron. Look, I'm not analyzing as in depth as you and other people, this isn't my skill-set.
I just really do want this area to get the stadium, of course, I only want it for the TigerCats really so I suppose I'm contradicting myself saying "too bad" if the Cats aren't on board right away. But I believe they will eventually. I suppose though that that is too big of a gamble and as you say, HOSTCO will change the location of the stadium if the TigerCats aren't on board by whatever date.
This is a very complex and tricky situation I have to admit. :?
I suppose I could live with HOSTCO changing the stadium to Toronto or Mississauga/GTA as long as at least one CFL team in this area benefits, TigerCats or Argonauts, without that then I don't care about the games all that much.
Yeah, that certainly sounds like some good ideas to me.
Not a very big fan of John Tory at all (largely due to his rabble-rousing in a neighbouring community not all that long ago), but sounds like there are some merits for him as a facillitator.
"Look, I'm not analyzing as in depth as you and other people, this isn't my skill-set. "
Earl: NONE of us have been anywhere near close in all of this since this process began.....so don't worry about lacking any skill-sets!
Most of us have tried to make educated guesses based on the situation, and our own personal preferences, as it was at any particular time.
About the closest I ever came was to suggest a few times that some other solution could come from out of left field. But that was always pure guesswork on my part.
So keep chiming in Earl....this forum is just like football itself. The game is the thing. Let the debating continue!
We are not finished yet.
Even with this revelation about keeping the track and field in Toronto we are still left with a City that will be fighting hard to keep the West Harbour site and the Cats who want to move from there but don't know where because they have not done their homework. All this needs to be solved in 6 weeks.
On top of that we have a Pan-Am committee head who should have made noises about all this weeks ago instead of giving us all platitudes. He now admits he has not talked to any other community in case his back-up plan is needed. Then he accuses Hamilton and the Caretaker of waiting too long to solve the problem and putting the stadium issue in danger.
There could be lots more foolishness in store yet before this is through.
But at least some daylight is showing and that's a good sign.
I think the $50m needed to expand the stadium to CFL size is a high end estimate with $25m being the lower.
I wouldn't be surprised to see more gov't thrown into the mix requiring less investmant, and therefore less risk, for caretaker to make west harbour work. (With revenue concessions of course)
Cap’n: Yeah…it’s tough to figure out how much they will save by eliminating the track. But it will also cost more to relocate it at the U of T. I also wonder about the seating. This 20,000 that the Cats have been using for their calculations worries me a little.
If there are no backers and the Caretaker has no money to throw into the mix we could end up with that.
I’m still guessing about the location though. West Harbour still looks like the best option for the greater good of the city but everyting else has pretty well been eliminated by the Mayor. Aldershot, (on the Hamilton side!) would be my guess but with only 6 weeks left it could be an impossible task to do the proper studies.
I wouldn't rule out councillor Bratina's SJAM idea. Seems like the perfect comprimise if you ask me.
It has both access and visibiliy of busy streets (not highways) and is close enough to the waterfront to still tie it in with downtown.
With the supposed LRT reconfiguring the 403 ramps and accesses to and from King st and Main st, York could be reconfigured to be the main highway entrance into the city, thus giving the stadium ( and Copps) a higher visibilty factor.