one step in the right direction

It's funny, it just dawned on me this idea that the waterfront area is more beautiful than say the airport lands. And yet, you go to the burbs in any city and you see new subdivisions, no trees, houses packed together with little backyard and 1 or 2 feet next to each other now that they put garages out in front. To me that is just plain ugly. And yet in older established neighbourhoods you often have bigger lots and room between the houses and of course trees. Much nicer. But a lot of young people want that new home in a field in the burbs as I say above. Interesting.

What's my point? Well not sure except to say that while people might think the airport lands aren't as nice as the waterfront for a stadium, to some I'm sure the airport lands are much nicer for a new stadium. I don't know. :?

I think by now we all know that the airport lands seem to be the only location that you want.
That's news to me. :roll:

My preferred site is on the east mountain near the Linc and the Red Hill and always has been.

If you read my post again, i said if it seems the Airport is the only other location the city is considering, then I’d let everyone know what facilities are there and what advantages the location offers.

It’s never been my first choice though.

Also, from the reports done in 2003 for the Commonwealth games bid that has been appended to the new reports submitted to council, state:

[i]"Airport Precinct
The Airport Precinct refers to the undeveloped lands immediately to the north of the John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport. Given their undeveloped nature, there is more than adequate room to develop a new stadium here.
There is no spare capacity in the existing water system, but in the future capacity to serve a stadium may become available due to planned investments in infrastructure in the area. Devoting some of this planned capacity to a stadium could limit the capacity available to new industries in the area, potentially limiting the amount of new industrial or commercial development.

There are no existing sanitary or storm sewers in this area today.

The airport precinct is far removed from most of the City of Hamilton and the other anticipated Commonwealth Games facilities. Access to the stadium would generally require driving and would not be well suited to the development of a dedicated transit route.

Size would not be a constraint at all to the development of a stadium in this precinct. However, developing this site has a low symbolic value and no regeneration impact at all. Land use compatibility would be something of a concern in that the active airport uses would detract from the quality of the stadium as an athletic or event venue. Moreover, the development of a stadium would preclude the development of business and industrial uses which are planned for the airport area – functions which would actually depend on proximity to the airport.

The real benefit of developing a stadium in this location would be that it would allow the City to use the Commonwealth Games to catalyze infrastructure investments which would enhance the long term viability and competitiveness of the airport and the businesses in the surrounding area. However, there is a definite possibility that such investments would still occur absent the Commonwealth Games."[/i]

Now it’s been a while since that report and I don’t recall any major infrastructure construction done there since. In fact I remember reading within the last year that a definate disadvantage of the airport site is no infrastructure servicing the area, and that would cost a lot.

It sure does matter to the cable and network installers, doesn’t it, deerhunter03?

Unless they are looking at a 60,000 plus luxury stadium to lure an NFL team, and I doubt that’s the case, there is no need for a huge amount of land if it’s more in the 27,000 category.

To respond to your analysis of my thoughts, I’ll just say that I’m not comparing anything to the north end location…I’m just telling you what the Airport lands have to offer now that the Mayor has pretty much said the Airport lands are the only other option…

Internet: Yes, existing high speed DSL and Cable are an important thing to know if a stadium is to be built outside the city proper…it’s one less thing to worry about…and it’s the most stable signal as compared to wireless from either Bell or Mountaincable towers.

Zoning: it will not be a problem on Airport lands…why do you think the city has it on their short list. Anything in that whole area is already zones commercial or light industrial

Environmental: You said “Environmental concerns are a major problem here. There are risks of ruining a species habitat, their breeding locations, their migrating routes etc? Are there not environmental concerns whenever you pave over land? What is going to happen with stormwater runoff that used to seep into the ground? What about the increased air pollution in the area from the extra cars? Environmental factors play a prominent role here, you are kidding yourself to think otherwise.”

Huh?..species habitat?..migrating routes?..pave over land?.. stormwater runoff ?.. Air pollution from extra cars?

May I remind you that we’re talking about Airport lands here…the goal of Hamilton Airport is to increase traffic flow and business as it is and to get rid of birds and other wildlife around the airport. The airport is built on the highest elevation of land between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario and has natural runoff into existing creeks in all directions…one such creek runs through Willow Valley Golf Course…Ironically, the more runoff, the more fish make it up that far…the creeks and ponds surrounding the airport are full of Northern Pike and Largemouth Bass as well as Perch during wet years.

Deer, geese, coyotes, rabbits and other critters are not welcome on airport lands and have been politely shown the door over the past 15 years through various aggressive methods…

Expropriations and OMB challenges: The airport lands in question are free of homes and businesses…the extra land is actually leased out to farmers to grow soya beans, corn etc…just waiting to be sold to developers…the best chunk of land available for the stadium would be at the south-west corner of Upper James and Dickenson (once owned or still owned by Orlick Industries if I’m not mistaken (David Braley)…or a little further south where the old, abandoned Mount Hope Golf Course once was and is now grown wild and,almost attached to that, is a piece of land that has been sitting doing nothing for almost 20 years after the city serviced what was supposed to be an industrial park…

So again, I don’t see any need for expropriations there or any serious OMB challenges…this is all zoned commercial or industrial anyways…very similar to Flamborough Downs area

Deerhunter I appreciate you thoughts and analysis but there are still some concerns to the points you addressed to counter my comments. I believe that I may be confused with the cable issue. Are you saying that it is a good location for cable providers or is it a good location because there is cable there for people in the area?

Here are some excerpts from the Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Plan pertaining to the airport lands and environmental requirements;

[i]3.1.4.7.8 As part of the comprehensive amendment process the City shall complete background studies and conduct
community planning and public consultation processes, including the establishment of a community liaison committee. The background studies and public consultation processes shall assist in identifying the types and layout of
future employment land uses, determining land supply and infrastructure requirements, and developing community growth management policies and designations. More specifically, the background studies shall include the
following:

b) Environmental Impact Statements
pertaining to the Natural Heritage
System as required by applicable
Official Plan and provincial policies;

3.1.4.9 In addition to the above, the City shall also prepare a secondary plan concurrently with, or immediately following, the approval of the comprehensive amendment. Through this secondary plan, the following additional
requirements will be required:
a) Sub-watershed plans and secondary
plan policies/designations related to
the protection and/or management of
natural heritage features and functions, including the management
objectives for storm water
infrastructure;

d) Completion of Class Environmental
Assessments for major urban
servicing infrastructure deemed to be
essential to commencement or
completion of development of all or
part of SPA 9 lands;[/i]
Also

3.1.5.3 Require that Area Municipal Official
Plans include policies which provide
opportunities for the revitalization of
declining industrial areas.

I have to ask about this point as well;

“Ironically, the more runoff, the more fish make it up that far…the creeks and ponds surrounding the airport are full of Northern Pike and Largemouth Bass as well as Perch during wet years.”

Are you saying that fish will benefit from runoff that contains oil, gas, salt, sand, cigarette butts etc or am I misinterpreting?

I by no means am an environmentalist but I stand by my point that environmental issues have the potential to be a very contentious issue.

And as I stated earlier, Anyone can appeal to the OMB. Does not matter if you own land near the proposed location, or live near the proposed location, I am just saying we can’t anticipate no appeals.

The high speed cable and phone lines are already there in that area.......that's all i was saying...I was just making a list of many things that are already in place if they do want to place the stadium there for the Pan Am games and beyond......I don't know what is confusing about that.

Also, the stadium isn't going to impact the surrounding environment due to rainwater runoff because all rainwater will be drained into the storm sewers as happens at Ivor Wynne Stadium right now (yes, the area is already serviced with storm sewers down Upper James.......linking into them is very easy)........so, the runoff from the stadium will not be going into the surrounding watershed or water table anyways.

The airport lands are already being developed slowly but surely anways. Maintenance hangars for West Jet and Cargo Jet are just two examples of recent brand new buildings there so there is no argument that somehow the airport lands are sacred and not to be disturbed. Right now, they are scraped flat and grow either soya beans, cattle corn or weeds just waiting to be developed in some form. The airport lands are not a protected Conservation Area and the goal has and always will be to develop it. Any environmental study will only focus on engineering and best practices for a new operation, structure or building.......not whether development should occur. It's already slated for development as a commercial, light industrial area. Zoning did that a long time ago.

LOL.

I always find it ironic when there is so much environmental concern about the environment when a project develops, and this is good no question. And yet farmers are allowed to spray all sorts of pesticides, registered ones but not without toxic effects when they runnoff into streams and creeks. Some of these farms are huge and large amounts of pesticides are used. I know driving down the QEW some days I've even smelled pesticides in the air from the spraying going on the fruit farms.

Zoning is the land use designation. The structure that will be on that land is what will trigger the environmental studies. This will be based on size (building height, and building envelope), traffic, permeable area etc. If the land is zoned employment (example only), the environmental concerns for a warehouse compared to an office building are going to be different (again example only) and the environmental impact statements will still be necessary.

Hey, without a doubt, all the due diligence as far as environmental issues etc. will and should be taken…but most of it has already been done in that area anyhow…project specific double checking and a few added requirements is all that will rally happen and I don’t foresee any huge hurdles is what I’m saying.

The North end sites are not in that position as it’s toxic land and no where near “shovel ready” as the airport lands are. There is also some pretty hefty hurdles to jump over in the north end as far as opposition from residents and expropriation due to it being in the middle of a residential neighbourhood…

I’d like to see the east mountain explored as an option in the first place, but if it’s only between the Airport and the North end, the airport gives us the best chance to minimize delays and to get this thing fast-tracked on schedule so that the Games Venue committee doesn’t get spooked and move it all closer to Toronto. (which is possible according to David Braley)

We can not lose this opportunity.

Um, no. Upper James and Dickenson is not close to the sewers at all. As I’ve said before, it’s been mentioned that sewer and water infrastructure would be an expensive proposition for that area and servicing a stadium limits future capacity for further devekopment as explained in the report that I provided.

Are you back on the airport bandwagon, mikey?

Who’s “we” anyway?

Wrong.

All of Upper James (Hwy # 6) through to Mount Hope were put on sewers about 20 years ago…If the stadium was to go in near the corner of Upper James and Dickenson (which I believe they’d be talking about), tying into the sewers would be a breeze…there are new housing surveys being built throughout Mount Hope as we speak alongside Upper James right up to Whitechurch Road as anyone who travels to Caledonia daily can tell you…so, trust me, sewers are there

Who's "we" in all this, mikey ?

Also, further to my last comments about sewers, Hamilton City water pipelines were also installed along Upper James about 20 years ago when the whole town of Caledonia switched over from their old, sulpher smelling water supply, to City of Hamilton water…and by default, all of Mount hope up Upper James and the entire village are also on Hamilton water now…as is the airport.

So, if the stadium is built anywhere close to Upper James, (such as Dickenson & Upper James) Hamiton water and Hamilton sewers are already there and can be easily accessed. Natural gas, high speed cable and high speed telephone infrastructure is also right there…so, that answers all the questions that would arise about services just in case some might think it’s way out in the boonies and there are no services or modern technology available.

So the airport idea isnt "stupid" (your words) anymore, mikey?

Again, from the report:

"[i]There is no spare capacity in the existing water system, but in the future capacity to serve a stadium may become available due to planned investments in infrastructure in the area. Devoting some of this planned capacity to a stadium could limit the capacity available to new industries in the area, potentially limiting the amount of new industrial or commercial development.

There are no existing sanitary or storm sewers in this area today."[/i]

You did touch on the traffic issue and that’s always a concern.

The good news is that most events will take place well after rush hour (7:00-7:30 pm on Thursdays or Fridays) or on weekends so I don’t see much impact on traffic that we don’t ordinarily see during peak commuter hours on a daily basis. A set of traffic lights at Dickenson Road would be probably necessary though. The highway there was redesigned very successfully about 15 years ago so re-engineering won’t be a necessity at all. There is also a partially completed road into that area right now which was supposed to be the industrial park…the city already owns that land. That road is just a wee bit north of Dickenson on the west side…so that could also be a service/game day entrance