NFL Team In Toronto: Bills, Saints, Or Jaguars?

Other Leagues and Sports
21

(Copied From The Argos Thread On The Matter)

Here's news on the Raiders that makes a point regarding considerations for a move to another place by any given NFL team, not that the Raiders would be in consideration for any plans for Toronto:

http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-n ... 013-a.html

Basically, as this example indicates, I would not feel so assured as do some below that many a given franchise is locked into its current situation when greener pastures lie somewhere else now and/or in the next 8 years.

Ultimately given the underlying economic and population demographics of Toronto, I do see at some point Toronto being a greener pasture for some NFL team.

Who and when is anyone's guess.

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Ryck, if you're saying the NFL thinks it's great to share a stadium with a team in MLB that has banners hanging as World Champs in baseball, playing some 80 or so home games, in a stadium more suited to baseball than football, you're a nutcase. Sorry, have to call your post as I see it.

I mean, you're saying the NFL doesn't covet football specific, NFL specific stadiums? Come on man... And it's a shot at the Blue Jays making the RC more less intimate than it already is for some 8 home football games a year. Again, come on...

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Now don’t go putting words in my mouth …now just where did i say that?
you won’t have to worry about it i don’t see the NFL moving to Toronto permanently …
but really just how is the rogers center not intimate for baseball? its a big dome with seats all around … i’ve been to many games at the rogers center to see the jays … its a baseball stadium … ive been to many at the exhibition stadium … rc center has more comfortable seating …
i dont get what you mean by more intimate ? you want to be closer buy a closer seat ? or do you want a crooner playing the piano singing love songs? i don’t get what you mean the seating there is pretty good for baseball… now go and stick a basketball court in there and it looks silly … but as far as NFL and Baseball sharing … do you need a post of all the teams that have shared

24

I've been to many games at old Tiger Stadium in Detroit and a few at the RC and no comparison, you are much closer in a baseball specific park. My uncle who is a baseball nut says the same about Fenway compared with the RC and he lives in Toronto. IMHO the RC is not intimate for baseball at all, it is the old bowl configuration that leaves people far far away compared with a specific baseball stadium that doesn't use a bowl configuration. Hey, I'm not a fan of the RC for anything other than the roof providing excellent weather, the lower bowl seats and not inclined enough.

And yes, NFL and MLB teams used to share stadiums a lot but not so much any more. ie. Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, Detroit...

Goodell said Toronto has stadium issues right now for an NFL team, he said that publicly a year or so ago at the SB. Of course if some group or groups in Toronto come up with the money for a team and a business plan that shows a NFL specific football stadium in the works, I do think Goodell would say fine to play at the RC in the interim. But as you say, right now the NFL is not moving into Toronto anytime soon, LA is a priority and the Bills need Toronto and s Ontario to help fill their stadium. Once Ralph Wilson passes on, I guess we'll see. But I'm really not sure about the NFL in Toronto with a team, sure loads of NFL fans like most parts of Canada but loads willing to part with a fair bit of money for football, consistently? I'm not sure about that. I think a second NHL team in Toronto actually makes more sense.

25

No the third major problem is with Toronto in the NFL, all sports media will treat the NFL as the league to follow, and the CFL would be a footprint, Toronto is the media centre of Canada, lose Toronto lose the media, lose the television exposure we have today.

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But should the Argos move out East, you pick up more fans there and really, how many people from Toronto watch their own team or the CFL consistently? I'm not sure. I really think as long as a team exists in S Ont ie. the Cats, the CFL is fine but that's just me.

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That is just you. Earl, I have to be honest, but I am really getting sick of your “move Toronto to the east” garbage as if it simply doesn’t matter and will have no impact. This league can’t afford to loss any market it has now, including Toronto. The idea is to grow, not contract and losing Toronto would be a hell of a contraction. I like have two teams close by to go to and being an devoted Argo fan, I have really had it with your shtick.

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Television numbers for the CFL aren't bad and haven't been bad in a long time. The problem is getting fans to pay to go to games. I remember a comedian a few years ago saying that the CFL in southern Ontario was like pornography in that many people would watch it at home but few would go out and pay to see it.

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I just think in some respects if Toronto lost their CFL team for a bit they might, as a whole, appreciate their team more and history of their team and themselves in this regard, more. I consider the Argonaut franchise as a Canadian cultural treasure, personally.

30

Great discussion and debate here ...so reading between the lines of Earl and C-Way's reference, does the franchise belong perhaps in a living museum out East that people in fact will pay to go see more than they will in Toronto?

31

Well Paolo, I think the city of Baltimore understood what they were missing when their Colts moved on. Sure, different circumstances but some similarities nevertheless. What is sad about Baltimore is that the fans were packing the old stadium and yet still they moved in the middle of the night to Indy because Baltimore wouldn’t build a new stadium. Something along those lines.

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Just when we thought we had the matter figured out to some degree (or not), the NFL Commissioner Goodell speaks again!

In a related story, the people of Minnesota are being smart, unlike those in Indiana and in Louisiana and in Western New York, to ask for more of a share of the capital from the NFL instead of the massive taxpayer boondoggle as suffered by fans in those markets:

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The bottom line of such tales including the tale of the Oakland Raiders as noted below?
(Errant thread and post re-copied here)

[url=http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-nfl-headlines/155850-raiders-plan-moving-out-oakland-after-2013-a.html]http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-n ... 013-a.html[/url]
Here's news on the Raiders that makes a point regarding considerations for a move to another place by any given NFL team, not that the Raiders would be in consideration for any plans for Toronto:

Basically, as this example indicates, I would not feel so assured as do some below that many a given franchise is locked into its current situation when greener pastures lie somewhere else now and/or in the next 8 years.

Ultimately given the underlying economic and population demographics of Toronto, I do see at some point Toronto being a greener pasture for some NFL team.

Who and when is anyone’s guess.


There will be more teams from which markets flush with cash such as Toronto will be able to choose in a few years largely due to the increasing demands not only on state and/or municipal public finances, which cannot be sustained even now, and greater contributions demanded from the NFL aka the owners.

Those owners are for the most greedy businessmen owning sports organisations largely for profit including massive tax-subsidized entertainment spending (real net income not just the books) beyond the bare income motive (revenue/gross income), and no way are they going to stick around floating such stadia bills with less public help or bilking when they have alternatives somewhere else.

Lest you have doubts about this line of argument, the owners cry of “woe is we,” despite record TV revenue, is about having overspent on modern infrastructure. They have been beating that drum as the key reason/excuse with regard to the lockout after not being able to gain a new CBA to increase their revenues and decrease their expenses to the players. And somehow of course also they can’t afford better health care for the players after retirement too you know. Meanwhile only the publicly-owned Green Bay Packers have open books mind you.

33

Good reads Paolo. Man, it's either new NFL stadium for teams or else Goodell isn't going to back a team too heavily in a community it seems. I guess that's like most of the big leagues though. If a city a league likes builds a new stadium or arena, look for a team to be there. Look at Phoenix or Atlanta in the NHL, the arena comes first with an owner but the actual thinking about if a team will work is secondary.

34

Add the Chargers to the Raiders this mix of teams who will move more than likely due to financial reasons to places extending beyond LA after one of these teams moves there.

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The money trail is in the final phase of construction as the current infrastructure for these teams, sometimes literally as in all of these cities except Jacksonville, is falling apart. And of course even the money trail's final phase for such team moves itself will take a few years, but these moves will happen from the municipal and state have-nots to the haves.

And I'll be the first to say it though can hear the howls coming already, but in addition an NFL team's move to lucrative BC is also ripe for the picking should some strong regional interests organise their capital and plans there.

Hockey, football, and soccer (on the US side football, soccer, and hockey) are where it's at in the Pacific Northwest in contrast to other parts of the US where baseball or basketball weigh into that mix (though the fair weather fans love only the winning of the Portland Trail Blazer and Seattle Mariners teams).

In short the money trail wins out as derived from ultimate fan and corporate support first and foremost.

What the average fan in a Metro area will do, plus above average corporate support, to fund the building of the money trail from their respective interests in the game-day experience will trump any given one of our opinions whether in agreement or disagreement.

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One thing for sure, the NFL is certainly not without it's issues as much as some like to think it's the most "perfect" pro league.

And yes Paolo, the money trail will win out in the long run, no question. What Hamilton city should have done if they really wanted to lure the NHL is instead of having some 6 or 8 corporate boxes that aren't that great, do what Winnipeg did and have over 40 that are first class. Whether the arena sits 15,000 or 17,500 isn't the main issue compared with corporate boxes. That said Hamilton is still too close to Toronto though that brings with it issues for potential owners to have to deal with.

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Unless your City Is Hamilton looking for a Hockey team … just saying :slight_smile:

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That's because Hamilton is "spaecial". But city council didn't figure that out when they built the arena. :wink:

38

Copps was a good investment for Hamilton, It’s not the Cities fault the Leafs won’t play a Hamilton team.

As for NFL team in T.O. _ Ontario residents can not afford a 2/3 billion dollar black hole! IMHO

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Well I think in Toronto maybe you all can breathe even easier with all that Bills talk. This article sums up the matter well.

Also cross Jacksonville and Minnesota off this list, for they stand to get new deals from the respective municipalities with their current owners not shopping their teams at all any more if ever truly before.

40

Jacksonville in just the recent past have singed a few deals locally i really doubt they were shopping or even looking … that rumor started when Wayne Weaver put out the idea of the Jags playing a couple of games out of town … was either Daytona or Orlando cannot remember which it was now but he said that he was considering it to attract potential new fans to the Jags which was also the reasoning behind the Bills playing in Toronto …to attract the people of southern Ontario to the Bills …
But as far as the Jags go when you sign multi-year stadium deals and the likes its not really something a team does just as they are shopping for a new owner or home