New stadium thoughts/questions

Well I haven't seen much talk about Doer and Asper rejecting the idea of Joint ownership.

If Asper got enough to do basicly every the same as 100% ownership except move/fold the team(major decisions like that)
Doer has the Remaining Community aspect to ensure the team upholds Community aspect of the team.

They should both be happy.

Asper can do all the day to day Operations he wants, just have a little community ownership to prevent anything really anti-bombers from happening.

And those who are going to say this, it is a pre-cautionairy meassure, I don't expect Asper to do anything, it's all just in case.
It is also for post Asper plans.

65M$ of a 145M$ plan isn't enough(especially with 25M is your own retail develpment)
That isn't even 50% private funding for the whole plan.

ofcourse asper should own the bombers...

you dont put up that kind of money - your own money - to not own the stadium OR the team?....why would anyone do that?

he has no problem using his money to build a stadium that he wont own aslong as he gets to own the team.

sounds good to me.

Still needs to atleast a 50/50 split + buy the team for atleast 10M.
a 33/66 split(asper/Gov) is not enough for transfer of ownership.
only 1 stadium in the whole league along with most if not all NFL stadiums are Goverment owned anyways and leased out.
Normally a stadium is built with: 46% private money, 54% public money
Those deals do not have Tranfer of team ownership in them.

he should get ownership if he puts 60M of the 120M stadium costs but not 100%

bewteen us barnes, I am still the one who is right.

In your Mind Barons.

Just some problems with Aspers plan, it's good but needs a few modifications can't be taken as is.

-isn't a standard private/Public split for north america. (Not including there is a complete transfer of ownership)

-No long term garantees about the teams situations(as in After Asper plans, no team movement)

-Land Value + team value = Stadium input issues.

Barons I completely agree that Asper is fronting alot of cash, But if you had two private investors putting into a new stadium.

  1. the owner putting 80M
  2. the new owner putting 40M + promises side stuff like Asper(like a 25M retail area)

Is it a good deal if the old owners gets the stadium and the new owner gets the team?
Especially when part of the deal is a long term lease.(on the stadium)

LOL got ya

got me?

lol kinda, I was trying to trick you into going into one of your 15 000 word rants.

how is a team that struggles to break-even year after year worth $19M?

u just pull these numbers outta thin-air.

i dont think the argos or ti-cats sold for a COMBINED $15M.

you could buy the stamps twice for less than what u think the bombers are worth.

Barons, Rants are fun. you actually count me words? nice. hehe.

For Drummer, No the number isn't pulled out of thin air. Nor do I think the Blue Bombers are the highest valued team(that is Edmonton at 25-30M atleast but they have a 14M bank account))

First go to the Bombers Finacial statement, they have 4M in the bank.
yes Winnipeg enterprises owes money to the City/bank but that is not the Winnipeg blue Bombers organization although there is a tax on bomber tickets to pay that money off.

Now as for the Bombers year to year revenues, in 2008 the Bombers will see a Revenues increase from the league of around 470K, this is over the 1.9M they got this year(yes I am including the fact they got 700K this year from the league this year to change divisions)
that 470K + not paying players bonuses(Khan + Brown) to beat the SMS system means the team breaks even.

Now if the team gets a home playoff game that's what 500K$?(a boost of their ticket revenues by 1/9)
That puts the blue at 500K$ profit. Concessions cover players, game day and so on.
If the blue keep on their current pace and keep improving attendance wise?
For example, the blue just re-newed with their biggest sponsor for 3 years is it?(Labatt Blue) which should mean atleast a Modest increase considering the team is on the up and up.

yes this team was in a horrible finacial situation as was BCL before Braley, TO before their group, the previous Als organization, Hamilton before Young, Calgary before their Forzani.

The only team who hasn't had some finacial problems is Edmonton(thus why their worth the most)

This does depend on the SMS working, I'll admit if that fails everything is meaningless. But if teams don't spend beyond that 4.05M on player expenditures(atleast until after the 2009 season in which the cap can rise by a couple hundred thousand)
Each team should be looking at solid profits.
BCL, MTL at 2-3M
EDM, TO, CGY, WPG, HAM at 1-2M
SSK at 1M(depending if they get their stadium upgrades and other concerts like the rolling stones ones if they do the number goes up)

To say a CFL team, which will all be in a fairly strong finacial situation.(Barring a major event, like a stadium collapsing)
is not worth say it's yearly revenues doesn't make sense.

Look at how much Nashville sold for, how does that work they lose money each year and make 60M a year?
if the NHL makes 2.4B and 1/3 of that is from canada = 1.608B from the USA/20 = 80M from each US team.
If Dallas, Colorado, NYR and Detroit don't bring in over a huge % of that money I'd be really suprised.
It's more like 450M from those 4 teams and 1.158M from the rest = 72.4M average US team, and Nashville is a below average US team.
again point,
Nashville sold for 220M, over 3 times what they make in revenues per year(and they lose money yearly)
now a CFL team, which would be making money yearly or atleast easily can(providing they follow the SMS) to not be worth their year revenues.. a tad odd.
now maybe if they had a stadium deal like Ottawa but that's not the case in most CFL cities.
Most teams have full control of their venue or stadium options on the horizon(BCL and TO specificly, but also new stadiums for WPG and POSSIBLY!!! CGY soon)

Right but your going to say... but from all the teams which have released their finacial numbers they've been losing or barely making money.
which CFL team that released their finacial numbers spent under 4.05M on players in 2006?

Winnipeg spent - 4.25-4.4M - atleast 200K over the cap but likely 300K+(bonuses)
Edmonton Spent - 4.6-4.75M - atleast 600K over the cap, 460K in bonses
Saskatchewan spent in excess of 5M - atleast 1M over 2007 cap. what 500K in bonuses?

It looks like all these teams are in a good finacial situation for the 2008 Season when they receive an extra 1M(Winnipeg 470K) in league money(TSN/RDS deal)

an extra 670K for Winnipeg = yearly profit(playoff games mean over 500K more)
an extra 1.6M for Edmonton = 2-3M in yearly profit? (oops put them in the wrong bracket before)
an extra 2M for Sask = atleast breaking even without rolling stones concerts with rolling stones 2M+ in yearly profit?

Seeing MTL's, BCL and TO's numbers would be great.

Actually I thought about our debate and here is how it should end.

Asper is willing to front up HIS money for the team and the stadium. IF Doer does not like the deal then Doer can get rid of Asper and front up the money himself.
That is the only way your side of the argument will work.
Your side of the argument totally defeats the purpose of Asper even being part of it in the first place.

so your saying Doer makes an 80M$ stadium?

well if 62M gets you BMO field(20.5K)
80M should get a 26.5K seat stadium.

Or:
120M gets Aspers 40K stadium
80M gets a 26.8K Seat stadium

Either way looks like 80M gets an around 26.5K Seat stadium.

So the blue go crawling back to Leo asking him to front say 20M + let him build his hotel at the Polo Park site + a retail dealio

that's a 100M(so 33K? seat) stadium with a hotel attachment.

It should have the key component(30+ luxury boxes)
and team stays community owned.

There ya go, Doers "backup" plan/Threat to build the stadium apparently on his own.. even though he doesn't own the team, the whole City gov? or prov gov does.
w/e, community owns it.

Now this is stretching things don't get me wrong there.

But isn't Doer fronting money or, Better yet.

the gov, is fronting money so it can sell an asset.
Put it that way.

Now I know they'll get their money back through taxes generated, still their selling an asset.

So the Asper deal would be great if the team was already privatly owned.
But adjustments should be made, due to the fact:
the team, the land lease, the stadium lease(well new stadium)
Will all be transfering from the Gov to Asper.

If the Asper plan was submitted in Hamilton or Calgary for their teams to get new stadium by their current owners it is the perfect distribution (the 1/3 3-way split)
The big deal is transfer of ownership(land, stadium, team)

The thing is that you dont see is that Doer has not shown any interest in any of the proposals.
Here you have guys saying "here take my money" and whats doer doing about it?
Aspers entire plan revolves around Mr Asper owning the Bombers and giving the city ownership of the stadium.
And if Doer does not go for it then it is a dead deal.

You are forgetting about the success of the government ran Winnipeg Arena compared to the privately owned MTS centre.
The MTS centre is attracking more than double the shows and attendance than the old arena.
Why, because the Government cant run shit on a popicle stick.
If Asper has a plan, and is forking out that kind of money, then by all means let him run the blue. The blue will have 10 times the success than it would as a community owned team.
If this deal goes through, Asper will not stop funding the team. Year after Year he will keep dumping money into the Blue because unlike the money losing community team it was for many, many years, Asper will keep on sponcering the team. He has the corporations that will buy advertising, will donate and sponcor the team and its charitible causes.
Asper unlike Doer, will not even question giving more money to the Blue many years down the road. Corperate funding will keep the Blue in the black forever.

That video is impressive! This is the first time I visited the site detailing the plan/proposal.
It sounds like this plan is taking into account the reason why a lot of CFL stadiums are simply being renovated and not replaced. Because for a new stadium to be built it would take a person and a plan like this, which doesn’t happen often.
For it to work there will have to be some handouts, if not the costs & interest of the stadium would probably never be recouped.

Regarding the Jets talk…I really don’t think MTS Centre is big enough. Were any of the “local owners”, as discussed on the JetsOwner site, involved in the Nashville bid process? Could they come up with $200M for a team, pay relocation fees, have a payroll anywhere close to the $50M cap, operate out of a 15,500 seat facility…and make money? Sorry, but I don’t think they could. Hey…prove me wrong!

Sounds like the team should try to raise some extra money somehow and do it without Asper and be in realestate as well. I always said to my friends that the teams in the CFL need other buissness interests to generate more money and real estate was the easiest route to go. The owners of the Bombers whoever that is Asper or the current situation should get the reward and the taxpayers whatever way it is split %33. It would be nice to see the group that owns them now and since the beggining finallt reap the rewards though.

...i don't see where you get the idea that Doer is NOT on side with the Asper plan....he has made it very plain...the Manitoba NDP govt. is totally on- side.....Doer said as much on the road up to the provincial election (of course you have to believe in politicians keeping their word ..heh heh ) as i see it, the stumbling block is the federal Conservative govt.....they are operating on a minority govt. string....so i would say they are going to be more than prudent with cash spending....I'll tell you one thing, if Mr. Harper and his gang turn us down....there won't be many votes coming out of Manitoba for that outfit....and Asper will have to re-jig his plan or scrap it altogether...that will be a kick in the a$$ to Manitobans.....we'll see :roll:

My two cents.
A nice 45,000 seat domed stadium in St Boniface would totally be farsighted with respect to both Winnipeg and the Bombers.
It would not kill the MTS Centre nor break the bank.
Fargo and Grand Forks ND down the road have indoor Stadiums and look no worse for the wear.Grand Forks is about 1/10th of the size of Winnipeg and has both the Ralph and an indoor stadium.
What exactly does one do with an expensive outdoor stadium in Winnipeg in the winter time? The answer is nothing and doing nothing means not making money.
A domed stadium in January could host major events,trade shows, large concerts and so forth.
The MTS Centre will not suffer and neither would the taxpayers.

let me change my stance a bit as that was posted many months ago. Instead let me add that the "province" may not support dumping money into it.

It is always good to reflect on history.
The original Winnipeg Arena was considered obsolete 5 years after it was constructed. The old Arena survived until a few years ago.The NHL Jets survived barely after the arena was upgraded in 1979.
The MTS Centre is a very nice building that came too late and is not quite sufficient to support a relocated Sun Belt NHL team without further expensive upgrades.
The flakier the deal the more government money becomes a precondition to a facility being built.Does anyone remember that world class facility called the Toronto Sky Dome? A few years ago this "world class" facility was sold to a consortium for about $25 million. The same $25 million today wouldn't buy a sub standard high rise with a lousy cap rate in Vancouver or Toronto. This "world class" facility as it was called was completed with much fanfare in 1989 for a cost of almost $700 million. In 2007 dollars that amounts to about $2 billion.The market value of that world class facility was barely $25 million, HUH?? Ditto Montreal huge public expenditures of money for 2 hours of Olympic celebrations.
Proposals for a St Boniface facility actually make sense and therefore will be ignored.
St Boniface is a beautiful community, central to Winnipeg and close to everything so to speak.
Put in a 45 K seat covered facility,lets see Bombers football,Bisons football,industrial trade shows,large rock concerts,hosting NFL exhibtion games,even Grey Cup with the Bombers playing in the SHOW.
A facility like that would have legs and carry Winnipeg forward for the next 50 years at minimal expense to taxpayers and a healthy return to investors.
If Grand Fork and Fargo ND can do it..hmm.well Winnipeg can.

Ok, the place in st boniface is crap, sorry but hate to burst the ST B bubble but There is nothing to do near that stadium. If you build it they will come, but what will they do b4 and after games. NOTHING, cuz there is noting there. Hog plants? yeah mmm yummy. This isnt Regina, hog poop is not part of our charm.