Agree that Jones is still a prospect, time will tell. The coaches still seem hight on Childs, I do not see it myself.... ET does say he regrets trading the 1st rounder, so....
Pretty much an unfounded criticism of Roy, largely based upon him not trading up to draft Clermont. Of course if you ask ET, who actually had two chances to pick Clermont and choose not to, I believe he will tell you that Roy did try to trade up, but there were no takers. You can't force a team to deal with you..It is interesting to note that we had the first pick overall, the year Clermont was draft eligible, but we chose an offensive lineman in the Supplemental Draft, and thus lost our pick. I can't remember the name of the guy...I know he didn't last the year!
Andrew Moore was his name. Lasted 1 year. Never started a game for Riders did he? Or anywhere in CFL. But dont talk about those bad moves.
Arius tell me about those bad trades from ET. Help me out. Please. Other than the number 1 for Jones and Childs which looks bad. But as you said. What if Jones becomes a Canadian starter this year? Or in 2009 or in 2010. Or if Jones is traded for a starter. Either way. Isnt that what draft picks are for Arius?
I thought Butler for Wayne Smith and DJ Flick was 1 of the best in the CFL last year.
I thought Lazeo for Cates was 1 of the best in the CFL.
Can you tell me 1 CFL trade better than either 1 in 2007?
I didnt like the Joseph trade but that doesnt make it a bad trade. 5 things will say good or bad but we will KNOW in time.
1 How Joseph plays in Toronto.
2 How Crandall plays.
3 How Tate or Jyles play.
4 How many games the Riders win without Joseph.
5 How Flemmons and January play.
Make that 6 things Arius.
6 Does Shologan play for the Riders this year. Or ever. And does he become a real good DT like Scott Shultz.
If Riders win 11 or 12. If Crandall plays good. If January or Flemmons become starters. Or both do. If the player from the Argos draft pick Shologan becomes a starter. Or even better becomes a all star. Then that trade I didnt like any more than you or Mike does become good. Very good.
But lets dont talk about Andrew Moore. Or St James. Remember? Or Augustine or whatever his name was. And OMeara who never started 1 game. Those were all wasted number 1 picks. But lets talk about trades we THINK are going to be bad.
Like Perry for Jyles and the draft pick. Isnt that the pick that Riders took center with this week? What if he becomes starting Canadian lineman for a lot of years. What if Jyles becomes a good qb for us?
None of us KNOW about Joseph trade. Or Perry trade yet. Time will tell. Maybe 2 bad trades. Maybe 2 great trades. May 1 of each. I didnt like Joseph trade. But I may be proved to be wrong.
But Augustine. Moore. OMeara. St James. We DO know dont we? They were wasted number 1 picks. But lets keep talking about Jones. Thats more fun. Even if he is still with Riders and other 4 are not.
Interesting if you like a smart ass newspaper guy. Who is this Friesen guy? Guess he thinks he knows more than Buono or Mohns or other CFL coaches. What will he write if Toronto was right? If 1 or 2 become starters. Bet he wont right a story about him making fun of the draft picks.
Perhaps you did not understand the article?
It was a fun take on the draft. And it is in fact amusing listening to GMs and coaches talking about how things went.
You ask what if some of these guys become starters? Well duh! Some of them will. So? most of the 48 players selected will be training camp fodder and will never be heard from again. Some will be competant back-ups and special teams guys for a few years. And a handful will be solid, bonafide starters. So most of these brilliant selections will be duds. yet EVERY GM will tell you that they got the "best players" the "diamonds in the rough", etc, etc. The point of the article isn't whether any of them are right. The point is, they can't all be right....
Perhaps YOU didnt understand me. I get tired of reporters who couldnt throw a football. Kick a football. Or anything compared to coaches always trying to be funny or smart asses. How often are sports reporters wrong Arius? Maybe if Friesen wants to be funny he could do this. Tell us what he predicted the Riders to do last year. Bet he was like a lot of them who said Riders were going to be bad. But its more fun to tell us how foolish coaches and gms are on draft day. That is my point. Being negative is easier than this. Saying some draft picks will be stars. Which ones will be stars. And trying to show they know as much as a Shivers or a Tillman or a Taman.
Every reporter who says Shivers missed Clermont should say this. Shivers drafted Fantuz. That is my point.
You constantly tell everyone you are sick of this conversation. Yet here you are, once again, being the one to give that dead horse another whipping.
I don't doubt if you cherry pick the bad draft picks, there have been some duds. I imagine ET has had a few over the years. It remains interesting that the same moron who was in charge of the Canadian draft for the Riders when losers like O'Meara, Augustine, etc., were picked is still the guy doing exactly the same job for ET.
As for the rest of your babble, I guess if Jordan Rempel becomes a starting offensive lineman for Hamilton down the road, by your logic, suddenly, the Butler trade is no longer a really good deal, but the Riders will have clearly been taken to the cleaners.
What if the draft pick we sent Calgary for Cates becomes a starter, and Cates blows out his knee this year (god forbid)? Then, oh my--we got hosed again!!
And jones remains a prospect. I guess he is a better prospect than Shea Emry would have been? Or we could have taken St.Pierre with that pick without trading Perry if we still had it...I'll tell you this though, both Pierre and Jones will not be starting at centre for us in 3 years...
It is actually possible to judge a trade based upon its merits, upon the known, rather than always doing it in hindsight. Yes, if your perfect storm of 6 points all come true, ET will look brilliant--at least to you. For me, even in that perfect storm, ET's judgement in making that deal will remain suspect. It remains the case that when you have the rent money, but you take it down to the local casino and bet it all on red, yes, if you win, now you can pay the rent and maybe take a vacation to Mexico, but it still was not the smart thing to do.
As for Andrew Moore, yes he never quite panned out--in his 2-3 years with the Riders, years in which he did in fact start games. I believe he suffered a number of injuries and some guy named O'day eventually beat him out of a job. Guy still managed to play pro football for 10 years....[url=http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3567135]http://www.oursportscentral.com/service ... id=3567135[/url]
O'Day? The 1 Tillman drafted in Toronto?
You keep saying the draft is run by Alex Smith. Do you think Shivers and Barrett let him pick the players? I dont. Do you think Austin and Tillman let him pick the players. I dont. I bet Shivers and Tillman looked at film. Bet the gms and head coaches made the decisions. Good and bad.
Shivers made some bad picks. But he made some good picks like Fantuz. Very good. My point? Not that Tillman doesnt make bad picks. Its just this. The Shivers lovers always want to talk about Brian Jones from last year. With Andrew Moore. And St James. And O'Meara. Theres not much room to talk about how bad Brian Jones MAY BE. Jones may be a back up this year. The other 3? Probably not even in the CFL.
Couldn't tell you who this Friesen is. And sports reporters make mistakes all the time. I think Rob Vanstone is an idiot--but you must love him because he is all about ET and the brilliance of the Joseph trade--he has been pushing Marcus Crandell as the starter since he won 5 games...3 years ago......
The point is, Freisen isn't saying he is smarter than the GMs and coaches. He is saying they simply cannot, no matter how brilliant they are, all be right on draft day...eg. O'B says he got the two best players in the draft. Huffer says he did. Are they both right? Seems unlikely. And they could just as easily both be wrong. It's funny. That's all.
Maybe this Arius. Hufnagel thought they had best because they needed OL help. OB thought Ticats got best player in Barker. And best receiver. No 4 cant be best 2. I understand. But some reporters always think they know more than the coaches or gms. They think its funny. Your word. But what about this? When THEY are wrong. Do they write stories saying THEY were wrong?
Vanstone. I think his headline this week was something good about Shivers. Something like he didnt get enough credit. Feel better now?
Vanstone did say something about Roy. I believe it was along the lines that Roy's teams were more talented than the 2007 team. Can't say I disagree with that. No doubt that is nearly unfathomable for you though.
Anyway, just proves even a blind pig can find the occasional truffle....
Just curious Austin. Where did you predict the Riders to finish last year?
I didnt predict Arius. But I was happy the Riders won. And I am not such a Shivers fan that I need to say BS like even a blind pig. Trying to take away from cup win.
But if you want to talk cup wins. And say they are luck. How many cups did Shivers win as gm of all american team in Birmingham? How many did Shivers win in 7 years here? He must have been unlucky. Tillman won 3. BC. Toronto. Saskatchewan. Guess he is a real lucky blind pig. Right Arius? Shivers and Tillman both won 1 grey cup with Flutie. The same right? But 3 to 0 in grey cups as gms.
You said drafting center this year somehow means Brian Jones wont be Riders center to. That is true. But maybe 1 will be a guard. Or 1 will be traded for a good player. Arius google O'Day and Folk. Argos drafted both centers same year. Tillman was gm. Maybe Alex Smith drafted them to. Or maybe Tillman was just lucky. Again. 2 centers who have been CFL starters for 10 years. But drafting Oday after Folk meant Argos had no confidence in Folk. Right Arius?
Alex Smith is the chief Canadian scout for the Riders. He does most of the leg work, watches the most film, and his input is very important to the decisions that are made. Of course the GMs and coaches make the final decisions. But if Alex Smith red flags a guy, I doubt he gets drafted. And conversely, if he recommends a guy as the best player at a given position, I doubt ET dismisses that opinion.
Same way when Roy and Danny were here. And I believe Alex did the same job for as far back as Jim Daley. Obviously, if 4 different coaches, and 3 GMs have given him this responsibilty, the man perhaps knows what he is doing--after all you always are about telling us to trust the choices of the GM and coach.
So if Alex Smith recommended Ausgutine and O'Meara, and also recommended Shologan and St. Pierre, who are you to point a finger and say bad picks/good picks.
It's a crapshoot. I believe ET used that exact word this week in describing the draft. You win some, you lose some.
Interestingly enough, ET told everyone this week we were so stocked with Canadian talent that we could draft guys like Shologan and Stadnyk for the future as we have no pressing needs. That says ET thinks we did a pretty decent job of building up Canadian talent while Roy was here.
And yes, ET signed O'Day in TO. I do not believe he was a draft pick though. 48 times these genius GMs managed to avoid Jeremy. And Then ET had the foresight to let him become a free agent in 1999. Meanwhile, how is David De La Parelle's career going?
Shiver's lovers...keep whipping that dead horse Austin. It'll get up and run for you any day now.....
Oday was a draft pick. CFL.ca story says ODay and Folk and Kelly Wiltshire where all rookies together. Sounded like Argos had 2 number 1 picks. Folk and Wilthsire. And ODay was a 2nd round pick. And I will take your word on DDL. Maybe he is fishing with OMeara and Andrew Moore.
Maybe Tillman meant this when he said Riders have a lot of Canadian talent. Can draft for future. Wayne Smith. Abou. Palmer. Boreham. Gordon. Getzlaf. Morley. Those trades helped. McKoy. Carter. Bradshaw. Those draft picks helped.
Tillman says on Riderville they are going to sign Bradshaw after NFL draft. Says he will be good Canadian back. Austin loved Bagg. Was he drafted or free agent?
That is more than 10 Canadians. All in 2 years. And before the draft last week. But all of credit goes to Shivers right? Nice try.
Shivers is in BC. Tillman is here. We will see which team goes up. Which team goes down. But 1 will be because of Shivers. And the other will not be his fault. Love that logic.
Snap that whip...I think the horse moved that time....
The Brian jones trade has nothing to do with Roy Shivers. It is a stupid trade all on its own merits and ET owns that one 100%. And if Brian Jones becomes an all-star centre, it remains, on paper, a stupid trade.
This is not rocket science, Austin. You don't trade a #1 pick for a 3rd round pick--and especially for a 3rd round pick you see as a project. If you have a specific need, and must fill a hole today, you might make the case--like the Lazeo-Cates deal last year. Both teams had a real and immediate need, and were able to fill those needs. Brian jones filled no immediate need. hell we still have no need a year later. So it was simply a bad deal. Period.
Just like the KJ trade remains a bad deal. We had no need for a QB--we were in real good shape. Now we are all holding our breath, crossing out fingers, and praying that Crandell doesn't stink, or a rookie pivot can play. We had no need--we were set at the position. Now we have a huge question mark at the most important position on the team. It doesn't matter if it all turns out okay. It was a bad idea. It was a poor risk.
look at the Butler/Flick/Smith trade last year. You laud that endlessly. How come? What is it in your mind, that made it such a brilliant trade--best in the CFL last year?
Was it just because Smith and Flick played well? Or did you like the trade before they even hit the field? I'll be surprised if you don't claim the latter. Because we got proven performers at two positions where we needed help. And we gave up prospects to get that help.
Now a year later, we are on the other end. We gave up proven performers to get unknown prospects. And now you sit back and tell us not to judge those deals until we see how the unknowns pan out. if you could judge the Flick/Smith deal last year, why not the Joseph deal this year?
Let's go further. Your perfect storm. Both Flick and Smith proved to be solid starters, right?
Now this year, if Flemons and January both prove to be solid starters, how does that compare? We got 2 starters for a 3rd string QB. This year, we get 2 starters for the league MOP. And Grey Cup champ. Seems reasonable, doesn't it? Of course if Shologan starts, well hey. We are off to the races!! That's the perfect storm. What if any of those 3 don't cut it. What if Crandell sucks and we don't have a starter? Those are a lot of ifs and maybes where frankly, no ifs and maybes existed before. When a trade creates more questions than it answers, the odds are it wasn't a very good trade.
And none of this takes anything away from the Grey Cup win.
We are now looking to the future. Last year is done. It was great. I want us to win in 2008. Everything gets judged on that, not last year. We did have the perfect storm last year.
We have even more unknowns coming at us this year. It will be more difficult to achieve the perfect storm again this year.
Kelly Wiltshire was drafted in 1996.
Here are the Toronto picks in 1997:
1 1 Toronto Folk, Chad OL Utah
1 9 Toronto DuBuc, Mathew SB Texas Tech
2 17 Toronto Salter, Steve OL Ottawa
3 18 Toronto Henry, Aldi CB Michigan State
3 24 Toronto Mudge, Dave OT Michigan State
4 33 Toronto Hansen, Jayson OL Texas Tech
5 41 Toronto Giardetti, Mark DE Evangel College
6 48 Toronto Kershaw, Kris QB
I don’t see O’Day on the list, but the CFL website does make mistakes.
Feel free to provide a link on O’Day being drafted. Being a rookie that year means nothing…
The point anout DDL was, if you want to cherry pick out the bad ones, it works both ways. Don’t yap about a few bad picks in previous years if you want to make bad picks ET has made off limits…
Of all the guys you list–ten was it?–I am really happy with Smith and Yarrick Carter. The rest have done very little. Maybe they’ll be good someday, but not yet. Boreham was okay. But being the worst punter in the league really didn’t impress me that much. Great kick-off guy though. But punting is a real weakness, not a strength on this team. Abou is just OK. The o-line must get better–that was not a strength last year either. I could see Best taking his job. Or someone else. Of course ET has brought in guys. Some good ones. But one can hardly make the claim that the crop you list made us so uch better in Canadian talent that…the fact is, we had good Canadian talent and that allowed ET to build upon that success.
Briefly on Bradshaw, hopefully he pans out. We are actually paperthin at that position, so I have my fingers crossed. If I recall correctly, we gave up a lot for that pick…
Edit: I believe we traded this years 3rd round pick for Bradshaw, a 5th round pick.
If I am correct, interestingly enough, Winnipeg took a RB with that pick. Of course we have shuttled so many picks around the last two years, it is tough to keep track…
I think Bagg may have been a free agent.
Found the answer in my Riders fact book. Bagg was a free agent. Not drafted. O'day was 2nd round pick by Argos in 1997. Supplemental draft. Same as Andrew Moore was with Riders.
So with your information and mine. This is what ET and the Argos did in 97. They drafted Folk and O'Day and Mudge. 3 of best lineman in CFL 11 years later. And Aldi Henry. Wasnt he outstanding Canadian in a Grey Cup 1 year?
O'Meara was traded for pick for Bradshaw. If Bradshaw does ok that was a good trade. We dont need O'Meara. And I dont think he did anything for the Bombers.
According to this article, Reggie Bradshaw plans to attend 'Rider training camp. You will see this paragraph about 4/5 into the article.
"After graduation, Bradshaw will head for the Roughriders' training camp, and begin the next chapter of his life as college graduate and professional football player."http://www.missoula.com/news/node/1094
Jeremy O'Day was one of those players who was "converted" into a centre. I believe he broke into the league as a right tackle, and not a very good one at that. The Argos eventually let him go after about 3 seasons and choose not to re-sign him where he was later picked up by the 'Riders. He then sat on the 'Rider bench as a backup o'lineman for at least two seasons.
Bagg was a signed as an undrafted CIAU Canadian. He had a very good training camp last year and played very well in one exhibition game, but that does not guarantee a repeat this year. I think the only reason the 'riders let him go was because he still had a year of school football left. Why have him sit on the bench here when he could be playing at school? But we do have some good potential at receiver with Getzlaf, Bagg and McKoy and of course Fantuz. Corey Grant is an adequate enough backup, and he does not hurt the team by being on the roster. It is too early to tell about McKoy and Getzlaf. Raw CIAU rookies being standouts as starters are rare, even for first rounders. It was not until the last third of his rookie season that Fantuz showed his potential.
I think Abou-Mechrek replaced Andrew Greene well enough, and where he stood out over Greene is that nasty edge he brought to the game, which the 'Riders O'line lacked prior to last season I think. He also was cheaper than Greene from what I understand. The lineman I was most disappointed with last season was Gene Makowsky. On an interesting note, Makowsky played guard at University.
Boreham replaced a crappy punter named Congi who in turn replaced one of the best punters in the game named Paul McCallum. I think the 'Riders stuck it to McCallum real bad because of one missed field goal while conveniently forgetting all those games that Paul won for the 'Riders with last minute field goals. And he certainly has played well for the Lions. It is interesting that Rob Pikula, the guy who Congi beat out in training camp has been looked at all over the league, and for the most part has played well when given the chance. Congi certainly did not have as good of a year place kicking last year as he did his rookie and Boreham is certainly a notch above Congi in kickoffs and punting but it is too bad we have to have two players for one position. But I would rather have two players instead of one, especially if that one is named Congi and we are looking at him for kickoffs and punting.
Matt O'Meara was a total bust. He did not even start a game last season when the Bomber line was riddled with injuries. The bombers choose instead to start a raw rookie from Thunder Bay named Kyle Koch over O'Meara, who interesting enough played for the same university team as O'Meara. Koch was also an undrafted CIAU free agent signing by the Bombers, just like Bagg.
I remember reading about the draft when O'Meara was drafted in the first round, BEFORE Chris Best and the 'riders overlooked Dominic Picard who is going to be a very good centre for Bombers. I shook my head for a long time that day. O'Meara's biggest problem is that he is dumber than a sack of hammers. He spent five years at university and STILL has not completed his education degree.
Brian Jones reminds me of Picard. They are both about the same size and both were talked about by sports writers prior to their respective draft years as being somewhat undersized, very athletic, but under-rated linemen who could surprise people if given the chance. Dominic Picard certainly has.
It is interesting Austin, you try so hard to defend Tillman that you fail to look at the big picture. You have slagged O'Meara a couple of times, I find that interesting. O'Meara and Best draft what 3rd and 4th in the 2005 draft. Both are still very much in the project stage. But yet, Eric the great trades him for a 5th round selection and he becomes an instant bum. Look at both O'Meara's and Best time dress for games, they are about equal.
Oxbow, question for you have you been to University. You make a comment about O'Meara not completing his degree. How do you know he didn't have to put himself through school so he had to work part time. How do you know, he didn't start out taking less classes in order to maintain a better grade. You don't, you are just making a stupid comment to justify your bag of hammers comment.
This is funny, you spew venom because a reporter, writes a story about all the gm's and the comments that they give on the players that are drafted. I mean not even you can disagree with him. The fact that a gm acts "really surprised" that a player (future superstar) was still available in 6th round. Come on, all he is saying if the guy was that good then maybe he shouldn't have been around in 6th round. But the gm's have a job to do. It is just like a hockey players interview..."we played hard, we stayed on him, we got a few shots on net and were lucky to get one by him"....same thing over and over. Nothing special, just a funny look at what they say.