Lack of visibility to attract new fans

That is exactly the current structure, they already are pretty much the same.

The only other model is the MLS one, which sounds like the direction XFL is heading in and if so we may follow.

Current each team is a wholly owned franchise and a totally separate property just like NFL. All the the NFL actually is a trade union that manages aspects between owners of the teams.

MLS is single owner, the league. All teams are the actual property of the league, they sell the management rights. So the “owner” of a MLS team doesn’t own the team, just owns the rights to manage and profit from the team.

Now this may sound like a difference that really isn’t one, from a management perspective you’d be right but legally it is huge. The NFL can’t collectively negotiate a single distributor for uniforms.

They have tried and were sued and lost. This is because legally since each team is separate property they are considered competitors and thus such collaboration is a anti trust violation.

MLS can because you cant compete with yourself. Thus MLS can collectively bargin single distribution for every team in the league since technically it owns all the teams. Courts look at ownership not management.

It is one of the key differences that makes the MLS more efficient and cost effective. Imagine if we were single owner what we could get for the exclusive rights to produce all the team’s merch? NFL can’t do that.

Early to mid 80s is BCs best attendance and can be traced to the new stadium BC Place
We saw similar effect (on smaller scale) in Toronto when SkyDome opened

1991 was a single year pop related to Flutie and others I am sure
Pezim caused far more damage than helped
Attendance plummets in 1992 (losing 15,000 fans per game to lowest levels since 1980 and earlier) and remains low until finally in 2005 Lions back over 30,000 a game

Saskatchewan is exact opposite as they have seen a nearly continuous attendance increase from the 1940s to present day

Go look back at the early 80s Argo parades
They were huge deals

Younger crowd has never seen anything like it (eg the Jays World Series parades which were considerably smaller)

As I said I am very skeptical the 2019 Raptors parade is larger
Basketball and Soccer have just never been that big in Canada
Today CFL football is a shadow of what it was in the 70s and early 80s

You also have to put in perspective your news source
eg Independent journalism estimates half a million people (Globe & Mail) City of Toronto has an even lower estimate.
MLSE and NBA report nearly 2 million people

I mean cmon beyond the obvious massive discrepancy in figures look at who is making the absurd large claims

Stephen Doig, a professor at Arizona State University and an expert on crowd​-size estimation, looked at aerial photos of the crowds and estimated the number was likely 600,000 at the most.

“You are safe to say ‘hundreds of thousands’ came out to see the parade. That’s a fabulous crowd, and a great credit to the Raptors and their fans. But saying 'two million’ is, frankly, ridiculous," he said.

For context, the total population of Toronto is 2.9 million people. The Greater Toronto Area is home to 5.9 million, according to 2016 census numbers.

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An expert on crowd-size? seriously? The Raptors are Canada’s team, it wouldn’t surprise me 600k to a million. GTA maybe 6 million but more like 8 million people live within the 50 mile radius of Toronto.
The Argos may have had some big crowds way back over 40 years ago but that was before major league teams came to Toronto Before the Raps, TFC and Jays, the Argos were the only professional sports team in Toronto,

But that is my point; that kind of comment shows a very obvious bias :slight_smile:

City of Toronto and Globe & Mail also reported far less than 1 million

The ONLY people reporting 2 million fans are those drinking the NBA Kool Aid

BTW 50 miles = 80 km
Noone is driving over an hour simply to attend a Raptors parade unless they are really die hard fans

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I think it would not have a positive effect . The ship did sail .

The NFL created an exclusive club ( minus GB ) .

Make it a smaller scale league from coast to coast on with expectations still at the 15 k to 20 k mark and maybe even less in smaller markets …

Start reversing the ratio slowly over a 20 year plan to a majority of CDNs playing .

Getting protection from foreign incursion into the market is job number one .

If I was going to create something today from the ashes that is where I would target it with grass roots playing our version with CFL minor league Football and less expectations so the league can get it’s feet underneath them .

Can’t see the CFL going back to starting over.

They can’t retract teams nor can they add them.

I was initially against a single division format but now I am actually open to as long as the Grey Cup is hosted by the team with a better record.

Love to see a December Grey Cup on a yearly basis but this could only be a one off.

Saturday afternoon Grey Cup is fine by me.

Bias? to what and why? not sure what your point is? you seem to be angry that so many people were happy about the Raptors win and you are trying to prove that not many people were actually at the parade and you said it was spoiled by gun fire.

As for driving an hour to attend a parade, wouldn’t most people use public transport? If you live in Hamilton or Oshawa or Barrie you could take the GO train or Via rail, why would you want to drive into downtown Toronto.
I watched parts of the parade on TV and I would’ve said “millions” I don’t need an “crowd expert” from some US university to tell me that it wasn’t really millions

Anger? No I was pointing out your obvious bias with NBA endorsed commentary such as “Canada’s Team” and how people would drive 80KM to watch a parade for a team that had pretty poor TV viewership all season (someone else had commented above - you? - that it was most watched sports event in Canada when in reality it is not even in Top10)
They had nowhere near the “2 million” people that MLSE / NBA claimed

I have attended a few games but have to admit Basketball is rather boring in my opinion

I was one (of many) who did not even know the Raps won championship until after the fact

Same thing happened when TFC won their championship. Majority of people in city found out about it after the fact.

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He saved the team from going under. Without him, there is no Lions of 2005, let alone 30,000 a game.
He didn’t know a thing about football and he admitted as much. The attendance did drop the following year but that coincided with the departure of Flutie and again dropping 15,000 but still drawing 25,000 means that you drew 40,000 the previous year. A drop yes, but your dropping from attendance figures that the team has to this day yet to match. Pezims empire was crumbling at the time so he didn’t have the ability to cut large cheques to cover losses anymore. Comrie comes in who was a football fan who had experience in the operations of a team through his involvement with the Eskimos, had money, but yet bailed after he quickly realized he was not going to make any money owning the team; after the team went on a historic Cinderella playoff run, yet saw no increase in fan support the following year.
Had the team been community owned during that time, they would have folded because the government or anybody else for that matter was going to write a cheque to keep the team going. At least the private owners paid the bills until papa Braley came along.

It’s a myth that the Lions were some kind of success story under community ownership. They were anything but

Soccer I appreciate.

Basketball I couldn’t care less about; no interest whatsoever.

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Not sure if starting over is really what I mean . I might not be expressing myself very well .

One thing from observation right here on the thread .

The attendance in BC which was a lot better than today and would be very welcome today ; the league still struggled to survive .

Even with Flutie .

I remember thinking to myself why are the teams having so much trouble . If we had attendance like we do today back then it would have never survived .

If we close the door to not doing this from the foundation up I know this house won’t stand no matter what happens with the XFL .

Whether we like it or not the CFL needs protection from the NFL and the only way to get that is making the league and our version CDN heritage worth keeping and that involves the young people wanting to actual play the game .

This is no quick fix this is a 20 year revamp and only unselfish ownership community and private will fix it with much lower expectations of the final result . Long lasting protection combined with long term stability minus large return compared to major leagues in the world .

My goal is simply to get to the level and mixture of Pro Japanese baseball , Pro Swedish Hockey and Australian rules football with their stability level . Nothing greater than that .

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Need to get some of the influence out of the CFL.

With Braley and Wetenhall out, it’s a start.

More concerned about Young and MLSE though.

Not sure if the influence has changed yet.

Let’s keep it at 9 teams where they are and work from that.

The owners, GMs, coaches, players and any stakeholders in the game need to pound the pavement gaining fans one at a time.

The CFL’S struggles in the 3 markets is nothing new but relocating them out won’t solve their problems with apathy.

They are fans out there in those cities. Need to reach them.

Start with the grassroots.

It worked with Bob Ackles in Vancouver. Just need someone with strong ties to the community.

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Let’s be clear here before there is more misunderstanding and I think I know what you meant and agree as you summarized.

“The Americans” who are saying spring football is the answer are in reality a very loud small number who are exponentially more numerous on social media than even those attending or watching those games and spending money on such leagues.

Now to be clear if XFL goes forward I’m all for some success in markets without the NFL or low on pro sports, but nope, I’m not watching football before about May.

The USFL did it the best and has its own history. No effort since has come close and none will because spring football is not a big-time idea and will not be one in my lifetime after all these failures since the USFL, which I feel would have made it but for its history as well documented in the ESPN 30 For 30 documentary from 2014 “Who Killed The USFL?”

Mind you the documentary was prophetic in secondary ways as well and showed enough for me to make up my mind well before the matter at hand in 2015.

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Smith did it in Montreal as well . We are missing leadership at the ground level and then not having systematic Succession Planning .

It’s incredible that the Ackles effect has not been studied properly. and duplicated .

The man started as a water boy and knew the CFL business like no other man or woman .

Read his book years ago .

Great read for anyone wanting to read his story both CFL and NFL insights .

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I did read his book. Would recommend this to anyone who wants to see the CFL doing well in the 3 major Canadian markets.

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The USFL was a raging success in some cities, others not so much

Trump’s Generals and the other richest team (the Xpress) were 2 of the most mismanaged teams who def helped kill the league

Teams such as Tampa Bay Bandits and Denver Gold did very well; highest attendances in league despite not trying to go head to head against the NFL for insane player costs
Teams who outbid the NFL teams were also those who did worst at the gate go figure

Also (same as we witnessed during CFL USA) the cities who were spurned by NFL tended to be far more successful
Jacksonville Bulls were a major reason the Jaguars ever came into existence

I never really wished XFL (or even WLAF, I kind of enjoyed that little league) ill will but they have to concede they will be second fiddle to NFL

USFL had the best shot at being a major league with big cities and a great TV contract
They blew it

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9 teams is alot for a single division and also has the playoff problem (some teams eliminated far too early)
At least cross over is less contentious

An unbalanced league though requires bye weeks and odd schedules

I would really love a 10th team; I know Schooners are most often mentioned but if they can not get it done then there are other large cities I say give a chance to (a 2nd Quebec team I am sure could do well, plus has added bonus of increasing CFLs exposure in the province. I feel Quebec has far more to offer than any of the Maritime or Territories do)

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I give TFC and MLS huge props
Even with limited talent supply (compared to Europeans) they really have established a viable brand

Once upon a time an MLS expansion team was worth less than a CFL USA franchise

It seems nearly unbelievable today

Without Covid they should have had 32 teams in the league for next year
That is larger than NHL even

Although I admit it is troubling the largest cities - NY & Chicago - are also the worst attendance wise

I dunno whats up with those cities and perceived non top tier sports

In those areas there is way too much else to do plus the locals who are soccer players and fans have other leagues they follow including PL, Liga MX, Serie A, and La Liga the most.

In the Chicago area it also does not help attendance that the stadium was way out in a suburb that is not easy for most to access, which is the problem we have here in Philadelphia too.

The Fire were rescheduled to relocate to Soldier Field in 2020, and well you know that story.

On most days here in Philadelphia it would be the same time, sometimes likely more, to reach the Union’s stadium here near Philadelphia from Baltimore than from the northern and western suburbs. It’s about an hour in either case barring a major traffic jam due to major construction or an accident, which is common.