Joseph

Ok so he hasn't had as good of a year this year as he did last year. He was hobbled by a knee injury for the majority of the year. But you know what this guy is a great quarterback in this league. I mean he missed 2 games and is 2nd in touchdown passes. If he can stay healthy into the playoffs we might have a legitimate chance at a GC apearance. Heres to hoping. I just hope we don't end up running this guy out of town. I was honestly sick when our "faithfull" fans started cheering Rocky Rocky! about a month ago on our own home turf. What other quarterback in the league do you want to see here????????? Burris (screw that guy) Ray (uhhhhh look at their record this year) Dickensen (way way way way way too injury prone) Calvillo (forget that ever happening plus can you say twilight) about that only other quarterback that I would rather have here is Buck Peirce just because he is a young talented guy, to say he could out perform Joseph over a season........ I dunno I would have to see it to believe it. I am very happy with our QB that we have now lets stick with him and fans rally behind him!!!!!!! Yehaw one last stop in Edmonton, and off to kill some horses!!!!!!!!

Agreed, Joseph will only continue to play better i think we have been even at times have criticized his play a little too much, i think we need to remember that this is josephs first year on a new team, new offence, new receivers ect...

You Think...?

Ive been saying that all year!

I am glad that you guys agree with me. Hopefully he can finnish out his career here and we can be happy we had a respectable quarter back for a few years. Now maybe if we could instill some respect in our fans and local media so they stoped calling for his head everytime we lose a game we would be alright!

Nice post boonedock...I would have to agree.

Go Riders

Joseph is a good qb, but Danny made a big mistake keeping him in games where the offense wasn't producing. If a qb can't move the team in four consecutive drives, he needs to watch from the sidelines and see what the D is doing. After a few series on the bench, go back in and exploit what the D is doing. Glad to hear Joseph won't be starting on Friday; give all three guys (especially Durant) a chance to test out his pro game in the event he will be callled upon in the playoffs

I am not sure Durant will be on the roster--he is the 4th stringer, not 3rd. But if we need to go to Durant in a play-off game, say goodnight Gracie!
The only way you will ever see Durant play in the play-offs this year is if they have dragged the other 3 guys off on stretchers. Or the score is 52-0 for either team.
And I'll have to totally agree to disagree with you about pulling QBs.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to back into a game? Pretty tough...

I dunno about the 4 drive thing... I mean sometimes it takes awhile to get in sync... but if your fumbling & intercepting your teams chances away thats another story...you can play chitty all game, but if you are not turning the ball over, you still have a good chance to win...
anyway the point is moot... as long as DB is coaching, we will NEVER have a starter pulled unless he ends up in a wheelchair using his teeth to steer.

If the qb isn't moving the team, isn't it wise to put someone else in to try and jumpstart the team? Making no changes is admitting defeat! Throwing in the towel after Friday's game means end of playoffs! I don't think anyone wants to lose purposely!

Jman was just yanking your chain, but....

It is simple. If a particular QB is clearly your best player, and gives you your best chance to win, how does that change just because the offense has sputtered for basically a quarter of football?
Dentor and I have hashed this one out before, but here is the deal.
QBs do not have success everytime out. No one scores each drive.
Also, just because the team didn't score does not mean the QB didn't do his job.
But QBs need to be allowed two things. One they need to play to get into a rythym. Second, they need to be able to play without fear of making a mistake.
If you are always pulling a QB because things aren't going well, then QBs, or any position, will begin to start playing, not to make plays, but to avoid making mistakes. And they will never get into a rythym.
We have all seen it a million times. The big comeback, the last second drive to win a game.
Star QBs do that. Stars make their reputations on that. If you pull your QB, he will never have that opportunity, and frankly, he will never be a star.
And overall,teams win more games sticking with the starter than they ever do by putting in a guy who is not as good.

Now, if the starter is not a clear starter, or there is some doubt about who is number one, that can cloud the issue.
But that is not the case here, and seldom is anywhere.
But taking a guy out for a few plays and putting him back in is likely my least favourite tactic in the game. It rarely has success.

Arius, I believe most Rider fans want to give Joseph a chance to succeed. The challenge this year (and what I feel is the source of most of the "Rocky" chants), is his knee. When he was first injured early on this year, it was evident that his effectiveness dropped off. I mean when you take away one of your star player's weapons (he was a 1000 yard rusher last year), it hurts the whole offense. That was very apparent when we had Nealon. If he hurt his leg, or the defense was able to take away his running ability, he was a below-average QB at best. I don't mean KJ fits that mold, but a leg or knee injury has to affect the whole offensive scheme. Add to that how painful it was to watch him hobbling around. It made me cringe every time he was hit. Pulling him out under those circumstances is helping prolong his career more than anything.

That's why i find Barrett's defense of why he didn't pull KJ in games where he was clearly hurt, and the game was out of reach anyway, so flawed. He said he didn't want to get him out of a rhythm. Yet here we are the last game of the year, and he's not playing KJ because he's nicked up!?!? Yeah the game's meaningless. But so is an out-of-reach fourth quarter. In fact that's far less meaningless, because you're risking a much worse injury.

Bottom line is, I really like KJ and hope the best for him. But I think our coach has to be a little more willing to take him out of a game when he's hurt.

I was mostly adressing general comments regarding the philosophy of making QB changes.
But regarding just Kerry Joseph and Danny, first, I'll make a point I have made elsewhere. Danny Barret is far from being the only coach to be reluctant to take out his starter, even when dinged up.
Most coaches do not.
I guess you can disagree with them, but then you are against most of the coaching fraternity. Maybe they are all stupid?

But of course injuries are a different issue all together, and as outsiders, we can only assume A) the coaches and training staff are competent and do not want players to play if they can't, and B) players won't play if it is a risk, or harmful to themselves or the team.
Beyond that, it is all speculation and second guessing as to whether it is the right or wrong thing to play a player or not.
I will say this however. Both Coaches and players are a lot less concerned about "potential" injuries than fans. When fans say, "maybe you should take that guy out so he won't get hurt" players don't think that way. And most coaches were players and they don't think that way either. When you start playing not to get hurt, the chances you will go up.

Anyway, specifically, KJ. People were demanding he be pulled before he was hurt, so it is not just the injury. But that injury is not going to get better this year. Rest him all you want, it will make minimal difference to the knee. And there is little chance of making it worse. The knee on knee blow he took a couple of games ago was a blow which might have kept him out the next game regardless.
Frankly, we have not been blown out in all that many games this year. Two early, BC and Calgary. Kerry was not hurt then, and needed the work. Would you have pulled him then?
Against Montreal, as I recall, Danny tried to rest Kerry, but Butler got hurt. Crandell was not ready, so do you put Durant in to get eaten alive, or play Joseph?
That was about the only "marginal" call I see from the entire season, where perhaps I may have pulled Joseph earlier.
Maybe in Edmonton, where the knee did seem to be bothering KJ. so two games, tops.
But I've had my share of knee and ankle injuries, and I can tell you it is not always as bad as it looks out there.
You may limp greatly while walking, but you can run, and cut without problems. Or sometimes, like with Kerry, I suspect, it looks really bad, and is impacting him in his acceleration somewhat, and definately at top speed, but it likely doesn't hurt all that much.
And as long as the chance to re-injure is minimal, and he can play, he is still our best chance to win. Period.

I really have no problem with a team pulling their QB. I just dont want there to be another QB controversy... we just fixed one of them.

Well my point was if an injury is hampering the QB's performance, the coach should seriously consider replacing him. A knee or leg injury may not have the same effect on someone like Danny McManus, but it has a huge impact on a 1000 yard rushing QB. And I have to disagree with the comment about knee injuries not necsessarily serious. Unless the player has been thoroughly checked by the doctor, I don't think a coach should take chance with a plyer's career by sending him out. It's not unlike a concussion - we're talking about the guy's life here. The Calgary game where KJ initially hurt his knee, there was no way of telling how badly hurt he was. Should he have been pulled at that time? Maybe, but it was coincidental that he played the next 2 games hurt, then he sat the next 2, with the same injury.

Of course I agree with the phylosophy of keeping your starter in throughout the game. Who wouldn't? He's your best player, and should be given the chance to finish the game. But everyone has off-days. Look at last year. There's no way the Eskimos even make it to the Grey Cup if the coach leaves Ray in every game. Come to think of it, there's really only Don Matthews and Dany B who seem to leave the QB in at all costs. I believe every other coach has substituted the QB at one point or other this year.

Maybe Rider fans are too hard on Dany B. But what we went through with Nealon has made us question his judgement on how he plays his QB. We had Nealon, Burris and Glenn. DB refused to replace Nealon no matter what. Now look around. The other 2 are starters (and stars) on rival teams, and we ended up GIVING Nealon away. Go figure.

I just don’t know if Joseph is the answer…

Greene definitely was NOT the answer…

Glenn could have been if Shivers hadn’t been so stuck on Greene! Losing Burris was a huge mistake and ell, there are so many other problems that Shivers made here…

ugh

Nealon Greene was a good Quarterback. You cant disagree with that in his 1st couple years here. But the man broke his leg. Signing, henry burris rattled his confidence and now barely anybody likes him. His broken leg ruined his game, which was using his feet to create plays.

It is difficult to say what happened with Nealon.
In his first 4 games coming off the injury, he was the best QB in the league (3-1, should have been 4-0, player of the week, and runner up to player of the week).
But when we went into Calgary, the wheels came off for the whole team.
Nealon actually didn't play that badly in that game. But the team as a whole spiralled down after that, and I think first Nealon was trying to hard, then he lost his confidence and he was playing hurt.
And I am not sure if he has, or ever will recover. Which is too bad because he is a class individual, a team player and a good QB.

The reason we lost Glenn was because we signed Burris.The coaches decided to go with Nealon and Burris as one-two. Glenn was the odd man out.
But if we don't sign Burris, Kevin Glenn would be the starter for the Riders right now.

Like I pointed out, and apparently it bears repeating, I don't know how anyone can place so much emphasis upon how "stuck" Danny and Roy were on Nealon.
He only played two and a half years out of 7!!
Burris started nearly as many games for us.
But more importantly, when Nealon did start? It was because he deserved to and because he played very well for us!!

Back to Kerry's injury.

And I have to disagree with the comment about knee injuries not necsessarily serious. Unless the player has been thoroughly checked by the doctor, I don't think a coach should take chance with a plyer's career by sending him out.
No one said knee injuries are not serious. I assume that his knee has been thoroughly checked by a doctor. I imagine he has had an MRI. And the diagnosis we are being told, by the coaches, trainers, and by Kerry, is that the knee is not in any danger of further damage being done by playing, but also that it is not going to get any better this year, regardless of how many games he sits out. No one on the team is saying what that means, but I assume it means one of two things. Either it will take 6-8 months of rehab to heal on its own, or, and I think this is more likely, it will require off-season surgery. And the surgery if done now would be the end of the season for him. Guys play through injuries, they play through pain. Guys that can't or won't do that seldom last long in pro sports.

Last, on coaches pulling QBs, name all these coaches that have yanked their starters without injury being a factor.
I personally am having trouble thinking of even one example.
BC? Oh, sure, no injuries there.
Calgary? McManus played about 3 quarters this year.
Ray? Did they ever pull him? Last year, Maas played about 3 minutes in the entire season.
Glenn? Has played nearly every down except for injury time.
Cavillo never gets yanked. Winningest coach in CFL history (big Nealon fan by the way)
Maas? Injured.
TO? Damon Allan got hurt in the first quarter of the first game, or Spergin Wynn never sees the field.

Go check your NFL teams as well, and you will see exactly the same scenario, up and down the league. Barring injury, QBs just do not get yanked. Until they are about to lose their job like Bledsoe is in Dallas....

Yeah, stupid Bledsoe! i have him on my fantasy football along with TO. i thought theyd be a good 1-2 punch, unfortunately that hast been the case lol

Well they didn't the benefit of an MRI on the sidelines of the Calgary game. KJ was clearly hurt - to what degree, nobody knew for sure - yet he stayed in the game.

Well you start with BC. Agreed, way too many injuries there to gauge the QB turnstile.
Calgary did have McManus come in during a couple of games (as Burris pouted onthe sidelines). You say 3 quarters, even if that's true, it's still 4% of the season, and he threw for 280 yards (which would equal any of Nealon's best games as a Rider). I think Burris benefited from that.
Ray....are you kidding me? Last year? He single-handedly got the shmos to the Grey Cup by coming in off the bench! http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?module=rost ... ros_id=111
Glenn was perlaced a couple of times by Banks (without injury). True it was late in the game, when things were out of hand. But isn't that supposed to be the time our starter earns his keep?
Cavillo - I said Matthews is one of the few who never pull the QB. (He always has been a big supporter of Nealon - that sure has paid off this year!).
Mass? Injured??? He was yanked both Riders games because he was ineffective - not because of injuries!! Even if he was injured (nicked), by your reasoning of "the best chance to win" should still be in effect?
TO....again too many injuries to gauge.

Look, I don't want to get in a pissing match with you. Truth be told I've always been a DB and Roy fan. Bottom line is they haven't produced. Sad but true. It just seems to me that you go to great lengths to defend them (and Nealon). That's fine, but they have their faults too.