Joesph

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine..
If your opinion differed from that of a self described rumpled scribe who stands on his Midwestern soap box in hopes of railroading the current coaching staff and a majority of the players who entered during its tenure out of town. Then you would be entitled.

However the opinions expressed are that of people who have no idea. Sheep, following a misguided black lamb. Well thats enough of my rant there back to the starting quarterback thing.

A coach has to play the player who they believe at that moment gives them the best chance to win. This year that guy is Kerry Joseph. And his stats bare this out, both throwing and running and recently for Kerry and the Riders in the win column as well. There would be no quarterback controversy if some rumpled scribe were not trying to stir one up.
Most one-two punches at quarterback come when one guy gets hurt and the other shows a lot while he is down. Dickenson-Printers and Dickinson-Pierce are examples. Austin-Burgess the same.
To be honest, in Saskatchewan in the last 6 years we have had a lot of talent at quarterback. We have had Burris, Glenn, Greene, Joseph, Crandall and Butler all lead us onto the field and to victory. Few other teams can point to as many field generals as we do. Heck half the league has an ex-Rider playing quarterback for them. Credit the scouting, credit the coaching…credit the fact that they all have found playing time when the coaches thought it appropriate and that they were ready to help us. Yes we have not secured a home playoff game. Its cold in Saskatchewan and more fun to go to a playoff game on the road anyways. Ok so I joke a bit. But maybe if we look to get behind the team and cheer for them…like the fans did last Sunday night during the last couple of minutes rather then subscribe to the rumpled sheep herder we would all be better off.
It seems to be in Coach Barrett’s opinion that Kerry Joseph gives the Riders the best opportunity to win now and in the playoffs. Cool…I have confidence in his decision and in Kerry and am happy to know that we have capable guys behind him should he go down or we need a change. Coach Barrett will decide when that needs to happen as he did earlier this year when Kerry was hobbled. And with a little luck. Because in a league with as much parity as the CFL a little luck is needed we will be in Winnipeg come November.

So really this isnt about Joesph or QB's in General its about philisophical coaching decisions..
lets break it down nice and simple...

On one side you have Barrett the ultimate players coach loved by all his players entering his seventh year with a losing record and 0 GC appearances who refuses to switch QB's in game.
On the Other side you have Buono.. is somewhat of a tyrant and probably not well liked by his players who happens to be the second winningiest coach in CFL History with a Mitt full of Grey Cup rings on his fingers who isnt afraid to bring in the relief pitcher when the starter faulters.

Cant be any Simpler than that :slight_smile:

I am pretty sure Wally rarely pulls his starter in a close ballgame.
Dickenson is clearly not 100%, and I'll bet Wally gave some thought to starting Buck, so in that case, it becomes easier to make a change.
Frankly, if Dickenson were my starter, I would have sat him this week after suffering another concussion last week.

I love the logic though, and I'll concede that many fans agree with you, that Joseph should always start, but you think he should be yanked at any point.
If he is your best player at the start of the game, and gives you the best chance to win, how come at halftime, if the game is tied or close, he is no longer your best player and no longer gives you your best chance to win?
And then next week, back to being the best?
Do fans think players forget the playbook during the break, or that somehow the guys arm stiffens up so he can't throw?

Makes no sense.

All I can tell you is after watching football for 40 years, I've seen more games won by sticking with your starter than have ever been won by putting in the back-up.
And when they are, often you'll see a new starter next week....

Another thing people may be forgetting is KJ has been here for not even a full season yet. It takes to to settle in get to know yoour teams tendancies and really gel. A perfect example is Calgary, last year they weren't stellar now their offence has been lighting it up. I think Kerry Joseph has what it takes i am just worried Danny will try to make him a pocket QB and not utilize his running ability

Just out of curiosity, here are the kind of things Lions fans have to say about Wally:

[i]As for Buono living and dying by his starting QB, regardless of how poorly he's playing. Well... That is a serious flaw in Buono's coaching philosophy. When you've got a backup QB as capable as Pierce, you don't wait until the dying minutes of the 4th quarter to pull your starter. At most, you let the starter play until midway through the 3rd, then pull him if he isn't having any success.

Time and time again Buono has stuck to his QB philosophy, and I'm wondering if he'll ever try something new. I'm all for keeping Wally as head coach and DD as starter, but isn't it time for a little more flexibility when you've got and had backups as capable as Pierce and Printers?[/i]

Any of that sound familiar?

BC Fans have opinions good and bad just like us.. no one is saying its right or wrong its a matter of opinion... and thats where we agree to disagree....
Wally's record speaks for itself, he happens to be successfull employing a 2 QB system atm because he has that luxury.. its obviously not for all teams.
Of all the teams in the CFL BC & Sask have the best chance to Win if there starter is injured...because the backups were capable and fortunate enough to play and have live game experience. True through Injury, but again thats why a 2 QB system works.

Some say KJ played a good game, but he did not move the offense past BC's 40 ALL game. We got the first TD off the D;s big stop on BC's third down gamble and if it was not for Fantuz we walk away empty handed. I think the D and Fantuz won that game.

Your Logic regarding Dickenson is probably accurate..but then that same logic should have been applied to Joseph ... he was obviously still injured yet Barrett stuck with him and we lost the game against Winnipeg, the guys prime asset is his ability to run yet they still are trying to turn him into a dropback passer? sound familiar? ( Hello Nealon )

I too am a long time 36 year Rider fan.. Kent Austin was a Great QB but he struggled at times ..Viola!! steps in Mr. Burgess and the rest is History.

I think KJ is a super QB who still needs time to gell, he has yet to give us that break out game we all know he is capable of, meanwhile it cant hurt to throw one of our capable Burgess type backups in when he struggles, and I am not talking first or second quarter.

The fact we are discussing this civil is Fun, I think we all aspire to be Armchair coaches.

ITS A MATTER OF OPINION and we all know Rider fans have many

:rockin:

And just tell me you weren't among the losers chanting, "Rocky, Rocky...." and civil and fun it will remain.

I just quoted the Lions fan, because interestingly enough, they complain Wally doesn't pull the starter enough.
And no matter where you go fans will ask to see more of the back-up.
Yet coaches, who are paid to win, and have their jobs and reputations at stake, and know more about football than you or I ever will, rarely pull the starter. And to decry Danny's coaching on that basis seems innapropriate
And it has been my experience that the reason is because it is either futile, or ineffective to do so.
For every example where pulling the starter has resulted in a win, there are a dozen cases where leaving the starter in has resulted in the win.

And remember, I am talking about cases where there is no question as to who the number one is.
In the Austin/Burgess case, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that Burgess was the starter, Hufnagel was actually the back-up, I think Bentrim was still here, and Austin only got his chance when all 3 were hurt. Game against the stinkin' 'Smoes as I recall where Huffer blew out the achilles in 87. Then in 88, they did QB by committee, 89, Austin was clearly number one, but only by seasons end, and then we traded Burgess. And I was always a bigger Burgess fan than Austin!!
In cases where a team is building, and may have a promising rookie to develop, getting him game action can be useful.
But with a veteran team, and veteran QB like the Riders, where we demand they win now, not next year, throwing Rocky out there because Kerry had a few tough series....?

Frankly, I have been dissappointed in Joseph's play thus far.
He can play better. The key here is, I think he can and will play better.
I like Rocky, and he might be our QB in a year or two.
But right now?
Joseph, playing below his potential, is still better than Rocky....
I might add, I think Crandell is at best an average QB who can go in and not lose the game for you.
But at his age, he isn't going to get better and he was never that good.
With Rocky...you can't be sure what you will get.
He has the natural ability to play, but if you throw him into a game, he can easily cost you a victory.
If Joseph makes a mistake, you can still be confident that he can win the game for you.
And that is why you don't throw the back-up out in a close game.

As for injury, Danny sat KJ for two games and he is as healthy now as he likely will be this year.
But his injury is unlikely to be aggravated by playing. (but it won't stun me if he needs surgery in the off-season)
Concussions not so much!
Dickenson is one hit away from being in a wheel chair eating porridge through a straw.... and the fact that he played at all was , to my mind, an error.

I might add, this issue always ticks me off, but especially so this week because of the so-called fans who chanted for Rocky, and some letters to the editor in the Leader-Post implying Danny should be fired for not playing Rocky....

My back prevents me from attending games anymore.. I would never chant for another player.

You say coaches are paid to win and have there jobs & reputations at stake....Barretts personal reasons for NOT pulling a QB is beacause he hated being pulled as a player?? ..Guess what Danny... suck it up... your not a player anymore....make decisions on whats best for the team not because your pride was hurt

"quote" -Then in 88, they did QB by committee, 89, Austin was clearly number one, but only by seasons end, and then we traded Burgess. And I was always a bigger Burgess fan than Austin!!

You just confirmed what I have been saying all along.. Austin was better.. you liked Burgess.. Riders won the Cup in 89 then traded away Burgess ...we have never been the same again...

KJ is better than Crandell or Rocky yet some like them better than KJ... Joseph has the star power of Austin but you want him to develope in spite of winning....
IF Barrett was in his second or third term as coach then yes I agree develope at all cost..

But he is in his 7th year and KJ is no spring chicken even you admit you are dissapointed at his play, but one thing I think we both agree on is KJ is probaly one of the most exciting QB's we have had in a Long time.
If we are going to Win the Cup its now!!.. the core nucleus of this team will be gone at seasons end with the new salary cap.. thus the cycle begins... new players ..new system.. probably new coach and the promise of rebuilding and a GC in 4 years..

I dont know about you, But I am sick & tired of Promises ....We have the talent at our disposal
(JUST LIKE 89) utililze them to Win games regardless of personal feelings..

We are beating a dead horse here.. the debate was fun but its time to move on..........over & out

I've heard some of those knocks against Barret before...he didn't like being pulled when he played, so he won't pull a player now.
Sheesh!
I don't want a player on my team who likes to be pulled.
But Danny Barret was the consumate team player when he did play, accepting the role of back-up, even playing slotback for a few years--whatever was asked of him and then he just worked hard and persevered.

I might add he was one of my favourite players as well.

As I have already stated, most/all coaches are reluctant to switch out QBs, so it is pretty hard to accuse Barret of "letting his personal feelings" affect him because he agrees with the vast majority of the coaching fraternity.

The reason we missed Burgess was because when Austin got hurt, we had no back-up, not because we needed someone to replace Austin in a close game ...
Crandel and Butler have successfully fullfilled that purpose.
I might add that we slid after the Burgess trade because Al Ford wasn't doing his job, which includes the terrible mistake of firing Gregory, more than just losing Burgess. I mean really, Rick Worman?

As for being a Burgess fan, I preferred Nealon to Burris, but Glenn was the best.
When people say we traded the wrong guy after 2003, I always agree--Burris would have been gone....
I think it's because I like guys like Nealon, Glenn or Burgess and Barret who play hard, give it their all each time out, but always put the team first!
I never saw that in guys like Austin or Burris. Still don't. (But I would still never pull either of them in a close game if they started!!)
But you don't need to play in order to have that kind of character impact on a team.
And I think all 3 of our guys show that kind of commitment to the team.
Of course a lot of it is the respect and loyalty a man like Danny Barret commands.
And part of that respect and loyalty is developed because the players know if they work hard, Danny will give them their chance.
And then once they have earned that chance, he will also allow them the opportunity to play through mistakes without worrying that if they do make a mistake they'll be pulled.
Players will not flourish, or develop in a system that treats them like meat.

Often people try to use the baseball analogy. Pitcher, relief pitcher. When the Starter starts to lose his stuff, or isn't on that day, you pull him.
Unfortunately, analogies are analogies because they are similar, not identical.
You don't pull Roger Clemens from a game because he gives up a homerun in the first inning, or because you are down 3 runs after 4 innings. You just do not do it! Lots of pitchers are allowed to continue even when it is obvious they aren't throwing well.
Because if you don't do it, then you waste the talent of your best pitchers and burn out the relief guys.
You don't pull Ken Dryden or Grant Fuhr or Patrick Roy because they give up a soft goal, or look shaky in the first period.
It isn't done!
Yet for some reason in football, people seem to think you just pull the QB.

You let your best players play and you let them work through those shaky moments.
If everytime a player has a rough spot, you pull them, they will never become great players, and if pulling them means putting in a less talented player, you have a drop off in skill that most times will be reflected negatively in the result.
Like I said, it is rare for a coach to pull his starter in a close game, and even rarer for that tactic to be succcessful.

Anyway, glad to hear you weren't chanting for Rocky (and would not!), but sorry to hear that you can't get to the games.
My back gets sore sitting on the old wooden seats as well...the aluminum ones are worse...but have you ever sat under the glass in the club seating?
More expensive, but your back might hold up.

It seems you guys have looked at this from all angles, but I'd like to weigh in with a point or 2. First, I would never jeer a Roughrider, no matter what (that only ever seems to come from the west side). Also, I too like Joseph and his potential. Having said that, I can understand people's frustrations. It's been a disappointing season at QB. We have a very good team - strong in all aspects, and great depth. It's been like that for several seasons now. The missing ingredient always seemed to be at QB. Then this offseason we picked up a top tier QB who became the highest paid player in the Rider's history. But his record right now is 5-6. And he hasn't exactly looked stellar. Maybe the team IS partly to blame, but the biggest problem I see is he over-throws receivers. I really hope he can remedy his inconsistent play, and finish the season with a bang, cuz he does have the best potential of all the QB's we have.

East side people seem to be too busy having fun and enjoying the game to be jeering at anyone.....I love it.....

I can't really disagree with anything you're saying, Rocky.....Greene used to keep me on the edge of my seat because I never knew if he'd get happy feet or fumble the ball.....Joseph keeps me on the edge of my seat because I never know if he'll hit the receiver.....

Well there were plenty of people chanting Rocky on the east side as well.
Where I was sitting, Joseph was slow getting up one play and some clowns yelled out, "stay down". Real fans never say stuff like that.

Anyway, at the end of the day, the one certain thing about football, is that QBs get too much credit when teams win, and take too much blame when they lose.

Thats pretty lame if the fans are doing that…I would be pretty POed if I heard that too… but fans have always been hard on QB’s …they booed Lancaster & Austin off the field…2 QB’s that won a GC for us…go figure :frowning:

IMO Joseph is more than twice the QB than Neolon Greene is/was. Joesph is the man/QB, case closed :cowboy:

Far be it for me to belabour a point, but i appear to have been correct about why Wally pulled Dickenson---he is hurt.
It appears he will warm the bench in Hamilton today, suffering from symptons of concussion.
He should never have played last week at all, so it isn't fair to assess the "pull the starter" rationale based on Wally's decision to do so last week.

Any word on how long Joseph may be out? Is Crandell ready to assume #2 again, or will Durant be backup?

Who ever the Qb is Montreal is going to kick your buts the next two weeks. You all better pray that the Argo's can do the same to the Eskies.

dariderfan, there are conflicting reports on Joseph.....some say he has a potential season-ending knee injury, and others say it's just a bruise. Basically, there's no concise anything on Joseph yet.....as for Crandell, last I heard he's still a week or two from playing.

Not what we want to hear at this time of the season!

Everyone knew Dickenson was wounded…he also did Squat until the Riders handed him 30 yards on that Jones Penalty…the only point you proved that Wally pulled the same bonehead move as Barrett …playing injured QB’s loses games.