Ivor Wynne vs. the Red Herring

Additional additionally......Ivor Wynne Stadium will last another 30-45 years with minor upkeep.
Don't believe me? Read the link at bottom of post. I dare ya.

"Canada Steel Inspection Services" 2006 noted minor flaking of protective coating on steel
girders...... and minor surface corrosion on columns and beams in the South Stands
." p.54
Hasn't this been made out to be the boogie man by a certain few? The only major
recommendation that I've seen is replace existing concrete slabs for about ten million.

As for the Structural Steel Condition Survey conducted by S.P. Design Inc. '04 on the North,
South, and East stands..... "Provided that the coating on the steel is maintained, the steel can be
expected to last for another 45 years or more
." p.16
"The steel structure and foundations on the South and East stand are capable of safely supporting
additional private amd corporate boxes on 2 levels with minor beam reinforcement.... a total of
76 private box units could be provided on 2 levels by adding to the ends of the existing boxes
and extending the full length of the south stands
." S.P. Design Inc. '04.
McGill stadium looked beautiful tonight. 50 some-odd sell outs in a row in a stadium 50 years older than
Ivor Wynne. Heck, even McMahon Stadium in Calgary is 10 years older than half of Ivor
Wynne yet they host Grey Cups and have no plans to replace it.
But of course we won't be happy until we have another BC Place, or Olympic Stadium, or
Commonwealth Stadium, or Skydome all in the form of a BMO Field structure. Nobody seems
to worry about the capital dollars and the underability of taxpayers to finance this venture/upkeep.
It's just like the buy now pay later plan....or eat from Wendie's now and die sooner. We just can't leave well
enough alone and spent 20-25 million to finish upgrading/refurbishing the best stadium in North
America for watching football. We just have to have that 8 lane track, soccer team, and Carrie
Underwood once a year.
This make or break thing about naming rights, highway access, parking are just part of the red
herring we've been told to buy into. I did mention McGill's 50 consecutive sell-outs and the brutal
attendance of fans trying to access the Roger's Centre just off the highway.
We've had some major anti-Tiger-Cat politicians in office over that last 20 years who have taken
the Tiger-Cats and Ivor Wynne for granted. Bob was aware of this but decided to step up anyway,
and thank goodness for that! He might have mismanaged the front office for the first 4 years and
that's okay, but why decieve the public now just because you want your biggie sized stadium financed
on the backs of the average guy?
I reccommend starting at page 10, for actual PDF's of Professionals' reports.

[url=http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/DA0A4AD2-080A-40E8-8246-D55998D5184F/0/Nov07ECS07013IvorWynneStadiumStructuralandLoadtesting.pdf]http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/DA0 ... esting.pdf[/url]

Just what we need another thred about the stadium. :roll:

renovate I.W. :thup: :twisted:

It's getting ridiculous how many stadium threads we have... I think this should be deleted or merged into the main stadium threads.

Its not about IW. its about were it is located, and the total lack of parking, and access for something called the automobile, you know, the thing in everybodies driveway. Still the best way to travel even in Hamilton.

Yeah no doubt. There is much more parking closer to Copps Coliseum.

Can we please just get back to talking about football?

In a thread titled "Ivor Wynne vs. the Red Herring"???? Seems like that would be off-topic.

Meanwhile, the OP apparently doesn't know the difference between a Red Herring and a White Elephant.

Agreed, and as the owner of Carmens said on CHML this morning. A stadium that is close to the highway with lots of parking will allow the Tiger Cats to reach out to the fans in the Region. Let’s make it a Regional team where we get fans from Kitchener/Waterloo/Guelph/Burllington/Oakville/Brampton/Mississauga/Niagara Region - it will be an easy drive to the stadium.

Zero spin-off benefit from that.

If I'm coming from Kitchener to go to a football game in Hamilton....I don't think a short drive off the highway will make me cancel my plans.

Getting back to the topic (Ivor Wynne) the longer this process goes on, the more I think EM will be a regretable mistake. If WH is not do-able, then I say pass on the Pan Am games and keep playing out of IWS until the city and Tiger-Cats learn how to act like partners.

Want more people to attend games? Start winiing.

IIRC this year the Tiger-Cats have the most corporate sponsorship and highest tickets sales in the caretaker era

What’s cahnged? Not the stadium. It’s still iWS, so that can’t be it. Last season the team wnet 9-9, and while a far cry from an excellent record, it’s also a far cry from the completely disastrous records for most of the caretaker era.

Just win baby!

I hear you Captain but this city needs a make over boost and money just used to clean things up and that won't change the overall image of Hamilton.

Personally yes, passing on the PanAms might be a blessing in disguise but I think the CFL as a whole could be better off if Bob sold the team to the city or someone else around here and bought the Argos from Braley and then Bob work with York Univ or whomever to get a stadium built for the Argos. Honestly, I think perhaps Bob and the city of Hamilton don't make a great mix and time to cut the cord perhaps. The TigerCats should be city owned I really am starting to think.

Bob, you're not really a Hamilton guy anyways, you're from way out in the 'burbs in Ancaster, as the Raise the Hammer folk would say, not a true Hamiltonian really. :stuck_out_tongue:

I know, we can all call you a Sprawler. :wink:

? Kind of funny that the letter from Scott Mitchell to the Mayor was addressed to “Fred? and not to the Mayor of Hamilton or Mr. Eisenberger.
Anyway, Scott Mitchell uses phrases like “vital concern to us?..... “we believe?...... “we have taken it upon ourselves?...... “encountered a number of concerns from local residents? (Herman Turkstra would write letters complaining about the direction of the wind over his Alma mater Westdale High School if he could, actually he may have done just that)........and with regard to hiring a number of experts to assist with analysis, Scott characterizes to Fred that it will help “ in understanding the business dynamics of operating a CFL franchise in our market?.
I realize Scott hasn’t the space (or time) to list details of those reports, but I would probably laugh at the argument presented if I were Fred. To me, it contains absolutely nothing new but a plea that implies “please don’t let this go to the OMB?.
Now, I don’t agree with Fred either. The West Harbour site is absolutely inaccessible to even 10,000 attendees to any event. I’ve been to Aquafest a few times and remember clearly the 30-40 mintues it took just to get up to Barton St. Like I’ve said before and will say again. Ivor Wynne will last another 45 years or more with minimal upgrades/upkeep. Read the report at top of this post. It would cost you and me a fraction of the costs to do this as opposed to building and maintaining another BMO metal type structure. Put your multi-level parking and year round ampitheatre and bar/restaurant on the Brian Timmins site. The Tiger-Cats won’t attract any meaningful revenue with a new stadium on the East Mtn or anywhere except with increased ticket prices, parking costs, concessions, corporate fees, etc. that you and I will have to pay for, but that will very likely fall flat if you look at the million and billions dollar costs and associating fiascos with BMO Field, Commonwealth Stadium, BC Place, Skydome, or Olympic Stadium. But hey, Bob and Scott don’t have to pay for the increased taxes or future factored costs. Why would they care about the fall-out from an ill-conceived plan like this as long as they make false innuendos based on their hired "expert analysis".... and then get out before the $^#@ will hit the fan/taxpayer.
Bob has manage to lose quite a few million every year already. Did he foresee this happening in his vision of what might be? Couldn’t be with his managing style or hirings, could it? Maybe Bob and Scott could hire a number of their "experts" to assist with analysis in how to manage a winning football team.
BTW, I luv Bob. He's great for Hamilton and the Tiger-Cats! Just not the stadium and what actually works.

1-4. Hmmmmm.

Now back to the debate. :wink:

I've always like the idea of re-vamping or rebulding Ivor Wynne. But then again...I'm not trying to run a business out of it. I don't mind parking 10 to 15 blocks away and hiking to the stadium or the slow pace of trying to crawl out of the city along King or Cannon with all the other revellers.

The only item I would caution about the original posting regarding the steel structure being sound is it isn't necessarily the steel girders that are in question but the steel re-inforcing within the concrete that may be corroded. Look at some of those bridges that have collapsed. The steel within the concrete has corroded and weakened as well as the concrete flaking or chipping resulting in the entire structure giving way and collapsing.

Pot head candidate proposes new stadium next to IWS. I have somebody to vote for :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
As attractive as that is he’s still a pothead


AKT, don't knock a pothead necessarily, when they are high they can, according to some, connect with the universal consciousness of the universe and thus have mystical thoughts and insights far beyond just ordinary human mindfulness.

So they say anyways. 8)

I don't believe so because this is a seperate thread about something that really has not had proper attention. Why do we need a new stadium? Really?

Watch my video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdemQSt5qZc IW is accessible, there is lot's of parking - better parking than a large, crowded parking lot. Park on the streets, park on a grass field where we also tailgate. Lot's of other business lots, churches, and local lawns open up for these events and we are overlooking the beauty in all of this by thinking about what every other large stadium in North America is doing. We don't need bigger parking lots.

The proposed light rail will run within a couple of blocks from Ivor Wynne. Game day already lines up a pile of city buses outside the stadium during the game. Businesses like Boston Pizza at Centre Mall capitalizing on Park and Ride.

West Harbour isn't all that un-accessible if you concisder most would park downtown and the GO and Light Rail going down there too, but this is about money and too much being spent on a stadium.

Thanks for sharing that report. It can also be found on the the Save IWS website http://www.saveivorwynnestadim.com

I talked to the Cats on monday and I still don't get a sense that all the reasons were clear. Where are all the supporting documents that prove some of the data below:

  • in 6 years, IWS will crumble into the earth (really? If we are not following through with that 2007 plan linked above PERHAPS, but....)

  • 'yearly', engineers are brought in to do these stress tests - I only found the 2007 report, but why are we paying them yearly because we aren't doing anything about the 2007 report and are affraid it will crumble?

  • the engineers will not sign off on IWS after the 6 years (probably because the city isn't doing anything about it - that report linked above, states $14M to fix concrete and steel structures, with no real 'Holy Crud' flags raised as this poster has pointed out), and an additional $2m to repair plumbing, lighting fixtures, doors and hinges and things like ventilation fans. That's $16m total

  • numbers are flying around like it's going to cost $93m to fix 'er up. Really? where does that come from. The above report semed very thorough? Are we talking about some other 'would like' updgrades?

  • IWS can already host soccer so let's spend a little money putting up seat backs, wrap arond the endzone seats to meet the north stands, and wrap the north and south stand around closer to Tiger-Vision - does that solve our 45,000 seat problem to be able to host Grey Cups? Spend a litlte on IWS as part of these games, and put the rest into the harbour. Tear down Scott Park. That gives us more parking - grass parking preferrred.

  • concession are an issue yet they are managed by the same people who manage Fenway Park (Compass). Really, Fenway is pretty old. How did they make concession work there because the lineup's were none existant when I seen hockey there during the holidays. They say even something as simple as making a hot dog at IW is brutal. Everything takes longer than it should because there isn't enough power into IWS and the water pressure is poor. How hard is it to fix these things? Really. I don't know.

  • hmmm....some people on the Future Fund Board own land up by East Mountain. Not sure why that was thrown in there but what don't we know as tax paying citizens about all of this. EM. WH. IWS.

  • why really hasn't IW been proposed? Why are we really losing money there or overspending? Why is Scott Park still standing?

  • as for concerts at IWS- not enough egress from the field and no sprinkler systems. Seems pretty inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. Really easy fixes as far as I am concerned. Residential also came up, but doesn't fly when you look at how close the band shell at Gage Park is from local residents. I live at Barton and Ottawa area and I can hear the words clear as day from Gage Park during festivals. Is the Harbour going to be much different than IW and EM will clearly be similar to Gage Park in distance the stadium is away from residents.

  • I want more answers because all I am seeing here is that the city and the Ti-Cats want something shiny and new as does the CFL and TSN for viewing pleasure. Why do we need to hide what Hamilton is? It's a steel town. Four generations of my family put food on our plates becuase of those places like them or not. It's what makes us us and if you don't like it, turn the camera's on the very beautiful espcarpment.

The Harbour needs our attention before the East Mountain. That is the fact here and if football can't work in the Harbour (even though it did for Baltimore and Cleveland - http://saveivorwynnestadium.com/blog/?page_id=45, then we need to save our money, fix up Ivor Wynne and use the Future Fund money more wisely.

You would be surprised to know that there are councillor's and many others, who wonder why IWS wasn't given any consideration and why we couldn't make football work there for many years to come. You are being told things like IWS has to go. Even Ken Peters and Wade Hemsworth talk so highly of IWS yet fall victim to the 'age' line at the end of their touching tribute to IW. Ivor Wynne Stadium is a large part of our history as are the 141 year old Tiger-Cats. Even the name itself looks and sounds 'Great'. Ivor Wynne. Look at those words.

Why have Chicago and Boston held onto Wrigley and Fenway so long? Obviously history is very important to them and they have done amazing things to bring the 21st century into those buildings, while holding true to the original designs.

“Ivor Wynne Stadium has undergone many changes over the years, but the stadium has remained true to the original vision of an outdoor stadium. In fact, it is one of the few stadiums of its kind in North America and is a significant historical and cultural landmark of Hamilton-Wentworth.? ~ found right on the Ti-Cats website.