I say based on the City's commishioned load testing engineer's report from 2007 on Ivor Wynne Stadium, which determined the South stands could last another 45 plus years with a $10 million dollar expenditure to replace the concrete slabs (approximately $20 million in 2012); I say Council needs to thoroughly investigate that option, before you continue to buy into the minor but loud histeria created by "Mitchellism" and Bob's threats.
The estimated cost to do the repairs is $9.35 million in 2004 prices, for seating slabs and stairways of south and east-stands and stairways only in the north-stands. This cost would not include the removal and replacement of seats. Installation of new seats is estimated at $4 to $5 million bringing the total estimated costs of all repairs to approximately $14 million.
Quotes from http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/DA0 ... esting.pdf
(6) "The steel structure of the South, East and North stands, which supports the pre-cast concrete seating slabs were examined by a qualified steel inspector and found to be structurally sound; hence, provided that regular maintenance is carried out (i.e. maintain protective coating), should last another 45 years, or more."
So, let's now look at the concrete slabs on the south side.
(8) "The steel structure and foundations on the South and East stands are capable of safely supporting additional and private corporate boxes on two (2) levels with minor beam reinforcement, same as already has been done. A total of seventy-six (76) private box units could be provided on two (2) levels by adding to the ends of the existing boxes and extending the full length of the existing boxes."
(13) "Estimated cost of replacement of the seating slabs and stairways (current note: some of which have already been done) of the South and East stands, and stairways of the North stands, (current note: again some of which have been done) is $9.35 million, not including the cost of seating. " ($14 million with seating).
Page 4, "It should be possible to remove and replace the seating slabs during the winter season...without affecting football operations provided that the new pre-cast seating slabs are fabricated prior to start of construction, and seating and other items are ready for installation."
North, South & East Stands Structural Steel Condition Survey
"Generally, the structural steel was found to be in good structural condition even though there was some minor surface corosion in some areas and some surface "pitting" noticeable on some columns and beams. This pitting occurred in the past when some of the steel columns and beams were encased with concrete block for the columns and plaster for the steel beams. After removal of the concrete block and plaster, the steel was coated and presently in good condition. The surface corrosion that appeared previously is not significant enough to affect the members structurally."
I am all for improving the comfort for patrons (yes even you biggie-sized wide brimmed fans who know nothing about economics but what you here from hype and others telling you what you and they need) while they enjoy sporting events at the stadium. I am only stressed a few times in my life.....when the Cats' are losing or when I grossly over-pay for things for the benefit of a few. No, I'm not a Leaf fan.
The Tiger-Cats are and have been the best money I have ever spent.
But, I am also a hard working taxpayer who is realistic about today's and tomorrow's growing billion dollar debts and past grandiose dreams of a few that I and generations will continue to pay for.
Larry Patterson and I shared a little dream over the last little while.
Larry is a dreamer, much like myself, but with sound Hamilton kind of common sense and the kind of guy you want to be your neighbour or the guy sitting next to you at the game.
I did not like the way Larry was belittled by some of the posts on here over the last year. Anyway......I was very glad to re-read some of the posts that Larry re-submitted a few days ago.
I'd like to resubmit just a few of mine over that last few years regarding the Hamilton-Tiger Cats, the fans, and the stadium issues.
?Sept 17, 2010
I've asked myself at times, why do I wonder at times about these statements from Bob.
I think to myself, he buys a team in a league and market that he knows won’’t make him much
richer. In fact, he knows he’’s going to lose some coin based on the financial sheets of the
previous Tiger-Cat owners (Grant/Mcdonald.....is Bob our new Pal Hal?) despite the
"comparably" very cheap rent he assumed (and has) paid to play at Ivor Wynne Stadium. (Of
course, now we know the current stadium will last another 45 plus years with a $20 million
reconstruction to the concrete slabs on the south stands according to the City commissioned 2007
engineering report). Anyway, despite the then future reports, on that Oct 7th 2003 day Bob
Young purchased Hamilton's 135 year old CFL franchise and all that comes with it.
A very memorable day for Tiger-Cat fans indeed!
So, again today after reading the article I ask myself how does Bob get away with pulling off
statements like he does? (Moving the team out of Hamilton.) I do know his team and related
executive decisions have been absolutely terrible for the first 6 and 4 years respectively, so I
did some research. His winning percentage
this decade has been the lowest the Tiger-Cats have ever had since 1936.
(Those statistics go back to 1936 - Hamilton Tiger-Cats) The only exception was
during the 1940's decade -WWII. (The league actually lost 3 seasons.) Make your own
conclusions about that.
Then, I looked at average attendance statistics and again I see during Bob’s tenure that we have
had the highest season attendance average since the 1970's.... was only about 1,800 more over both decades.)
(BTW, we had the biggest outdoor stadium in Canada for 5 of those years in the '70's.)
I had to shake my head again. Lowest winning percentage and yet highest attendance averages. Still!......Bob throws
around quotes like this?
Yes, Bob and Dofasco have invested in the Tiger-vision and Bob invested in the Jarvis St
headquarters as part of the reported $30 million invested into the team and local economy.
But what really has changed in the economics of CFL teams since the time he bought the team?
Well, the Tiger-Cat’s average attendance has been higher in the time he’’s owned the team (yes,
that’’s what I said, despite the last 6 years of abysmal Tiger-Cat football with only 2 playoff
games, we have averaged the highest attendance since the early 70's.) In fact, during the 2004 season the
Hamilton Tiger-Cats drew over 250,000 fans to Ivor Wynne Stadium for the first time in the
illustrious 135-year history. Of course, Bob’’s multiple 3-17 seasons not to mention the 4-15 and
5-13 seasons have put a damper on the initial 250,000 highlight. YET, we have still managed to
set our best attendance average ever in this decade. In fact, this year’’s team averages over 24,000
a game.
So with several last place CFL finishes and Bob’’s numerous ““apparent upgrades?? and many
subsequent apologies over the years we continued to lose. Now, after all these ““hang in there
season cause I’’m new to this", we get threats like ““we might pull the team out of Hamilton???
I say........Hello Bob, your tenure marks the 2000s as the first decade since the 1890s that
Hamilton failed to win a championship.
Ivor Wynne Stadium has undergone many changes over the years, but the stadium has stayed true
to the vision of an outdoor venue. Fact.... it is one of the few ““stadiums of its kind in North
America and is a significant historical and cultural landmark of Hamilton-Wentworth.??
Just maybe, that is why the fans still come out in record numbers. Not because of 5,000 parking
spots that you and a few wide brimmed walkers want, and just maybe because we’’re not called
Shopper’’s Drugmart Stadium at a $2.5 million/year benefit.
Aside from the loud minority, Tiger-Cat fans have proven that they love coming to the stadium
we already have. Save your $50-100 million that it will take for another BMO Field and the $140
million (climbing daily) capital costs that the taxpayers of Hamilton and Ontario will pay to get
you those naming rights, parking revenues, higher ticket prices (that will last just a few years
before fans stay home and watch it on tv.)
Upgrade that south side, build the up to 78 private boxes on the south side, put some backs on
those bench seats, give us a bar/restaurant on the Brian Timmins site with some ““additional
parking?? and sit back and continue to enjoy the show like we don’’t get anywhere else in this
day and age.
Sept 10, 2010
this decade's average attendance is the highest since the 1970's. So, we still have a stadium that
was completely rebuilt in 1971 (North stands) and 1959 (South stands) and the South stands can
support 78 private boxes, but of course our Scott Mitchell and our Councillors won't tell you any
of that.
all we need is $20 million to replace the concrete slabs on the South stands to make the entire
IWS structurally sound for 45 plus years and dare I say another $40 million to construct a 3-level
parking facility on the Brian Timmis site along with a restaurant/bar and the new location for the
Hall of Fame. I think Harper would go for that.
Heck Commonwealth Stadium only has 1,500 parking spots but make loads of cash and McGill
Stadium or Percivl Molson Stadium if you prefer, has absolutely no parking and no highway
access.
I sort of shake my head at the media including TSN, Brunt, the Spec, the Globe,...etc that go
along with the perpetuated Scott Mitchell and Bob theory that the stadium is an "ancient".."old
place"...etc.
When actually the stadium is younger than probably 80 percent of the perpectuaters. This baby
boom generation just can't wait to get their biggie size on whether it's a bust or not.
We're averaging over 24,000 fans this year and have seen our best attendance this past decade
than we have since the 1960's which was before half of today's Ivor Wynne was actually
built....the other half (south stands were completely rebuilt and competed in 1959). The 2007
engineer report commissioned by the city indicated the south stands could support 78 more
private boxes btw).
Sept 8, 2010
Since half of Ivor Wynne Stadium was entirely rebuilt from the ground up just 12 years before
Copps Colliseum started construction and since Ivor Ivor Wynne will be structurally sound for
another 45 plus years with a $20 million upgrade on the south stands, the prudent and fiscally
responsible thing would be to renovate it.
With the 5-10 year City of Hamilton plan the EM site would have been surrounded by residential
homes.....yes, all within close ear shot. There goes the Rush and Pink Floyd concerts. Not sure if
you've been to Longwood and Aberdeen in the last 10 years, but there is quite the subdivision
built up west of the Chedoke Golf Course not the mention the vast established area of residents
just east of the Aberdeen and Longwood site, many of which are in as close of ear shot as many
neighbours would be around Ivor Wynne. Stay tuned!
Check out the increasing attendance stats at Ivor Wynne Stadium over the last 40 years instead.
21,000 average attendance to break even, but all of a sudden Bob is $7 million in debt. How
could that be with all the great management decisions he made during the consecutive 4-17
(win/loss) seasons he directed over the years?
Sept1, 2010
lpattison wrote:By the way, the $93M quoted yesterday in the council meeting, was to demolish
and rebuild a new stadium at 75 Balsam. I just checked into it.
Is that so????
I wondered where they came up with those numbers. Unbelievable.
The engineering reports stated that it would cost $10 million 3 years ago ($20 million with
inflation) to replace the south concrete slabs rendering IWS structurally sound for the next 45
plus years, yet we hear numbers like $93 million.
What are your sources?
BTW, most of council is a joke when is comes to knowing the actual economics of the Tiger-
Cats at IWS. None of them knew the answers when the question was raised at yesterdays Council
meeting. Even Chris Murray pulled the old "i'll have to get back to you on that".
Unbelievable. Sam Merulla seemed to be about the only one who had facts.
Additional additionally......Ivor Wynne Stadium will last another 30-45 years with minor upkeep.
Don't believe me? Read the link at bottom of post. I dare ya.
July 22, 2010
"Canada Steel Inspection Services" 2006 noted minor flaking of protective coating on steel
girders...... and minor surface corrosion on columns and beams in the South Stands." p.54
Hasn't this been made out to be the boogie man by a certain few? The only major
recommendation that I've seen is replace existing concrete slabs for about ten million.
As for the Structural Steel Condition Survey conducted by S.P. Design Inc. '04 on the North,
South, and East stands..... "Provided that the coating on the steel is maintained, the steel can be
expected to last for another 45 years or more." p.16
"The steel structure and foundations on the South and East stand are capable of safely supporting
additional private amd corporate boxes on 2 levels with minor beam reinforcement.... a total of
76 private box units could be provided on 2 levels by adding to the ends of the existing boxes
and extending the full length of the south stands." S.P. Design Inc. '04.
McGill stadium looked beautiful tonight. 50 some-odd sell outs in a row in a stadium 50 years
older than
Ivor Wynne. Heck, even McMahon Stadium in Calgary is 10 years older than half of Ivor
Wynne yet they host Grey Cups and have no plans to replace it.
But of course we won't be happy until we have another BC Place, or Olympic Stadium, or
Commonwealth Stadium, or Skydome all in the form of a BMO Field structure. Nobody seems
to worry about the capital dollars and the underability of taxpayers to finance this
venture/upkeep.
It's just like the buy now pay later plan....or eat from Wendie's now and die sooner. We just can't
leave well
enough alone and spent 20-25 million to finish upgrading/refurbishing the best stadium in North
America for watching football. We just have to have that 8 lane track, soccer team, and Carrie
Underwood once a year.
This make or break thing about naming rights, highway access, parking are just part of the red
herring we've been told to buy into. I did mention McGill's 50 consecutive sell-outs and the
brutal
attendance of fans trying to access the Roger's Centre just off the highway.
We've had some major anti-Tiger-Cat politicians in office over that last 20 years who have taken
the Tiger-Cats and Ivor Wynne for granted. Bob was aware of this but decided to step up anyway,
and thank goodness for that! He might have mismanaged the front office for the first 4 years and
that's okay, but why decieve the public now just because you want your biggie sized stadium
financed
on the backs of the average guy?
I reccommend starting at page 10, for actual PDF's of Professionals' reports.
July 15, 2010
Facts are facts. West Harbour, Conferation Park, Airport lands, East Mtn green space......are all
going to have their pros and cons and will go on for years and years and years if one is actually
chosen. The we will start including lawsuits galour. The reason I mention lawsuits is because of
watershed issues attached to the several of the recommended locations.
My point, put 1/10th of our taxpayer money (that includes municipal/provincial) into upgrading
the solid concrete structure that is Ivor Wynne Stadium and save us the costs of trying to keep up
with our humongous appetites for Pan Am track and field and the likes that will now be financed
through in part through the HST and Eco taxes. Why am I the only one getting all of this?
July 3, 2010
Name a concrete bridge that has collapapsed. The Pantheon is 2,000 yrs old and standing strong.
Prefer BMO Field's metal stadium in Toronto that shakes when the crowd gets raucous?
Emergency repairs were already needed on a 3 year old metal stadium. At $62,000,000 for
20,000 seats 3 years ago, what do you think we'll get?
WIth upkeep,IWS's 40 yrs old concrete shoud last longer than BMO Field with a lot less of a
price tag. IWS isn't what keeps us from selling out. It's part of what keeps us coming back
contrare to what Scott Mitchell says.
May 29, 2010
Let me help you out.
Calgary's McMahon Stadium where the CFL's Stampeders play their home games, is older than
Hamilton's Ivor Wynne Stadium, the home of the TIger-Cats. Yet, McMahon Stadium is good
enough to be considered a host for the NHL Heritage Classic on a world stage, where as Ivor
Wynne is an embarassment to Scott Mitchel, and a few "drive the Infinite, pay for it later" TC
fans. Get my drift?
The envy coming across from the David Braley's and the like with all this hype about Hamilton
needing to replace the best professional football stadium in North America for watching a game
is just that. Hype! Owning the BC Lions wasn't enough for Braley so he bought the Toront0
Ar@%! Same guy, who tried selling the clones of this province that we need a new stadium for
the amazing experience we'll have for 2 weeks, 5 years from now.
So, the hype has centred on the pushover taxpayers of the Province of Ontario to build another
metal stadium to host a track and field event in 2015.
Guess who get all the headlines?
You guessed it, not you or I.
Guess who gets to pay for it.
Ask Montreal and our taxes still paying for the Big O..
Is this suppose to make the Hamilton Tiger-Cats profitable?
I see more debt. But hey I'm not a Dalton fan.
May 29, 2010
McMahon Stadium, Calgary, Albera.
... ?Hmm, it's older than Ivor Wynne.
It seats just 5 thousand more than Ivor Wynne.
It hosted last years Grey Cup and made a profit.
Calgary has no plans to rebuild another.
Why did we hear for the last number of years, that for the Tiger-Cats to break even they needed
this and that amount of fans in the stands. I remember the numbers fluctuating around 22,000.
Then all of a sudden we're losing $7 million/year.
Has the new TC headquarters made us better? Did signing Printers, KK make us better? etc etc etc.
I do like Bob, don't get me wrong.
So, some chatter comes in on this forum for a new stadium from a few who already go to games
but now want their wide brimmed seating and a 10 lane track around the stadium just so they can
say "hey we got a brand new metal stadium" that will take longer to get to no matter where they
"might" put it.
Is a newer metal stadium with a 30,000 seating capacity the answer to Tiger-Cat's attendance
issues?
I'll go out on a limb and say, No. Ivor Wynne's concrete will be around just as long as a new
metal stadium that will "shake" just like BMO Field.
Ivor Wynne is not the issue among real fans.
Our certain "elected" who denounce the value of the Tiger-Cats and the "well to do" with the
"biggie size" this fans are
the ones to blame.
Save the regular "Joe" with the years of taxpayers' debt with a Pan Am stadium. Put some of our
$$$ taxes into Ivor Wynne
and you'll get the relevant increase in attendance and we won't get marked with the next "white
elephant".
For those with Toronto envy, then spend our cash on the little metal stadium that could. We'll
then have 2 stadiums and you might even get front row seats to any country music show you
want.
May 6, 2010
We love to bark about something so we bark about Ivor Wynne not having parking or being
built in the 1970's. So we continue to park within a 5-15 minutes walk from the stadium and take
in the truly Hamilton ambience of the game day experience along side our brethren in front of us
or across the street. We do the same thing when the game is over. Bob talks about the billion
dollar fiasco of Olympic Stadium but doesn’’t talk about the stadium in Calgary that is older than
Ivor Wynne. McMahon Stadium was good enough to host the 2009 Grey Cup with no talk of
replacing it. Hamilton already has the best stadium in North America for watching professional
football and the East Enders can attest to it with over a billion miles walked. I’’m assuming here,
but I have a strong gut feeling I’’m much less inclined to drive to battle the highway, side roads,
and corridors of an Aldershot or Confederation Park location. Sure we’’ll get the loud socialites
sitting pretty parking real close. I’’m quite sure I’’ll have to leave sooner and I’’ll get home later
than I do now. Don’’t get me started on the complete lack of accessibility or impact on the
neighbourhood of a Chedoke location.
Bob and the Tiger-Cats, we appreciate what you’’ve taken on more than you know. I think the
City owes Bob and the Team more than what they’’re getting back. I think the City/CFL owes
you a CFL Hall of Fame on location. I think the City owes you the permits to a beautiful concert
hall and restaurant. (Heck we approved the Du Maurier Centre and they’’ve profited on sales from
killing people). I think the City owes you rights to Brian Timmins to do this and what ever you
want (hint - include multi-level parking). I think the City should give you the key to Ivor Wynne
stadium and subsidize the expansion of a 2nd tier on the South side.
I can envision all of this. Of course I sit in a corner by myself a lot and get laughed at. Laughed
at by the ““envisionaire types?? who run for election and get elected because they know so
much more than me.
