how much $$$ did the ticats and argos sell for?

does anyone know or remember what the current owners of the ticats and argos paid for those teams in '04?

or have any idea what a current cfl team might sell for?

what did the stamps sell for to the current owners?

I am not sure this information ever came out from the league or each owner.
In days gone bye, it used to be $1 for the team and picking up all the debts.

i read the argos previous owner lost about $5M per year for three years then gave the rights for team to the CFL for nothing…so i can’t imagine the current argo owners had to pay too much.

and your PM says the stamps were purchased for $7M.

the whole reason i ask this, is cuz on the bombers board, barnes7 seems to think the bombers are worth $19M ( outside of aspers plan for the team )…which i know is not even close to the actual value of the team, which struggles to break-even every year and play in a stadium thats older than dirt, which they dont own.

[url=http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/Winnipeg/2006/09/08/1814600-sun.html]http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/ ... 0-sun.html[/url]

according to this, Bauer believes $7 - 10 million is the value of the Bomber franchise.

Bauer: "We've gone from five-and-a-half-million dollar debt to hopefully this year, after a successful Grey Cup, to having a couple million in the bank. People have taken notice of that.
how does a $5.5M debt to a ONE-YEAR couple million dollar profit = club being worth $10M???

they ONLY reason they have any profit right now is from a grey cup game, which doesnt happen every year....

the best they can do in non-grey cup years is a small $200 000 profit or break-even...i dont see how anyone would pay $10M for the bombers currently.

Bauer:It hasn't been this financially healthy in decades,
so a club that hasn't seen a couple million dollar profit in DECADES is suddenly worth $10M?....OOOOkkkk :roll:

it would take a buyer 50 years to make back the $10M it cost to buy the team....that, or host 5 grey cups in a row and sell them all out.

Don't forget when these three teams sold, the league was on the upswing, but nowhere near the current financial peak.
So, I would guess how the Stamps may be worth in excess of $10M, same thing for the Argos and Ticats.
I read recently how Braley in BC although not looking to sell would relinquish for $15M.
The bottom line is anything has a price and what someone is willing to pay for it.
The league although there are some concerns, what sport does not have same, is better off financially then probably at anytime previously.
Most if not all teams made money last year or at worst nearly broke even.
CFL and the teams are appreciating in value.

as was said on PTS, the reason the CFL doesnt have owners lining up for the ottawa team, is because the downside far outweights the upside.

upside: u break-even or post a small $200,000 profit.

downside: you lose, potentially $5M per year for 3 or 4 years b4 you host a grey cup which earns you $3M...still post $12M in losses over 3 years.

hmmmm.....$12M losses over 3 years ( not to mention the $6M franchise fee ) or $600,000 profit over 3 years ( which STILL hasnt paid off the franchise fee )...risk not worth reward.

this is why noone steps up in ottawa and why the bombers are not worth close to $10.

if you paid $10M for the bombers, it would take you a life time to have earned enough to make that money back.

this is why the Asper deal MUST go thu...he pays for 1/3 of a stadium which will belong to the city ( and government money will be repaid in 5 years ), a new mall will be built with aspers money ( giving city more tax money ), and asper will pay any bomber losses....and will give the team back to the city if something happens to him ( death ).

if asper doesnt get the team, the people incharge of winnipeg and manitoba are complete idiots.

Agreed.
At least the losses in the CFL are minimal compared to other sports.
The current owner of the recently "sold" Nashville Predators says he lost $70M in the 10 years.

the whole point of this thread was to prove it only makes sense for the bombers to be given to asper in this stadium deal ( in exhange for his $80M and covering future bomber losses )....and because it makes too much sense is why i fear it wont go through.

Without a new stadium and private ownership the Bombers will always be treading water.
To most of us here, this is a no brainer.

Bang on, DG.

Your not exactly reading the full deal now are you?

How are the Blue worth so much?

New Digs
If the team is sold in the process of getting a state of the art facility they are worth 15M.

they have 3M+ in the banks(yes from the grey cup, but so what every team gets money from Grey cups about once every 8 years)

The Blue should be looking to make 1-2M a year in new digs.

Think an extra Million from the TSN deal in 2008.

Look at other CFL teams, Edmonton is worth 25M atleast, they have 10M in the banks and can make atleast 1M per year.

Teams aren’t necessairly making alot of money in 2006, but how many teams spent hundreds of thousands of Dollars in Bonuses?

The Riders only made 500$, but they spent over 500K in bonuses, same with the Esks.

If teams stay under the 4.05M cap they should be looking at 500-1M each year.

Not to mention every team who has had their finacial numbers released did NOT have a home playoff game.
I was doing the numbers, Both BC and the Argos had over 310K people attend games in 2006.

BC has had their luxury boxes sold out for the past 3 years(including this year) that is over 14K for each small box and 3,4,5K for the bigger ones.

The largest 91 person box goes for 4.55K + 6% GST + 15% Gratuity + min food/beverage purchases of 1.25K(in the contract) this is BC

The Lions seem to be able to make money if they wish, same with the Argos, Als, Eskimos.
Even the lowly Riders can make good money in their old stadium.

The blue in a new stadium are set to make cash.
expected revenues with a new stadium:
an extra 1M + an extra 1M from TSN.

Which team is in a position to lose money?
Providing
they follow the 4.05M cap
They don’t have a horrible horrible string of seasons(like 0-36 over 2 years)

CFL teams are worth atleast 10M, with garantees of top quality stadiums and cheap long term leases on those stadiums their value is pushed up to 15M + any money a team has in the banks.

aweee....the long-winded ones reply:

says who?..U?
how can they be worth $15M if they get new digs, when the new digs wont happen unless they are given to asper?

your argument in the bomber forum is, "asper shouldnt be given ownership of the team for his $80M investment, because the bombers are worth $19M"

the bombers are not worth $19M....not by a long shot! currently the bombers MIGHT be worth $4-$6M...thats it! HECK, 2 years from now playing in thier current stadium ( which is where they will be playing if aspers proposal is shot down by Doer ), they could be worth $1 again.

so, barnes, think of it this way: asper buys the bombers for $5M, invests $75M of his own money towards a stadium and is asking for government funding for the rest, which will be paid back in 5 years, PLUS asper is leaving ownership of the stadium to the city, and is building a mall in the city with his own money....AND is leaving ownership of the team to the city if he were to die....whats wrong with that????

80M?? If he was offering up 80M it would be a no brainer.

but he is only offering up 40M in his initial proposal thus why there is negotiations taking place.

yes he is offering 25M extra for the retail area, but that is not part of the stadium deal as it is him being able to cover his own losses as he owns the team.
the stadium deal does not hinge on the retail development that provides outside revenues, the retail development will not even be built right away it will be done atleast after the initial season in the new stadium.

So it's 40M.
40M for a team that is worth 15M + 3M(Bank account) + a 40 year lease(at maybe 1$ a year) for a 30M$ piece of land.

That is the problem with the Asper plan, it does not make sense for Asper to get full ownership under that deal.

However should the asper deal be say 60M of the 120M stadium and he gets majority(not total) ownership. even up to 75% ownership that works.

if he put up 80M of the 120M stadium he could get say 90% ownership, that last bit of community ownership only stops the Possiblity of moving/folding the team(not that it is at all likely with Asper + a new stadium) it only stops it from future owners options(say 25-30 years down the line).

either way...$65M investment in the city and asking for a $5M team in return, which will NEVER earn him his $65M back.

city gets a new stadium which they own and will make them alot of tax money thu the years. they get a new mall which they wont own, but will also make them tax money thu the years...and they dont have to keep funding the bombers losses.

that extra 25M investment is supposed to get a return of 3-7M per year(PROFIT) so it seems he will get back his money.

How can the bombers be worth 6M when they have 3M in the bank?

in 2008 the Bombers get an extra 1M from the CFL(TSN deal)(yes it's not quiet 1M with the money the Blue got from the CFL for switching conferences)

The blue received 750K which = over 100K per every other CFL team.
Edmonton receive 1.27M from the CFL, so add 1.1M(from TSN/RDS and the 100K the blue got in 2006) that means all CFL teams receiver 2.37M in 2008(if other sponsorship deals don't go up)

Right there that means the Blue will receive a Boost to their 2008 revenues over their 2006 revenues of 470K
the Bombers losses in 2006: 597K

so the blue would lose: 127K all remaining even.

HOWEVER the blue lost more money in 2006 due to going over 4.05M in salaries(also giving out bonuses atleast combined to 100K Doug Brown and Obby Khan)

So at this point the team is looking to earn a small profit yearly, if the blue spend 3.9-4M on salaries something like 50-100K profit yearly

an increase over the 27K fans per game(over a 10 game season) earning a home playoff game(50/50 shot)(for the first time since the 2003 CFL season.(increases ticket revenues by like 500K, concessions revenues all loses from extra game-day, front office, player/coaches expenses)

Now no garantees a team will finish top 2, but it's 50/50 year to year it should be expected to get a home playoff game every 2 years.(although Sask proves that wrong each year)

ALSO REVENUE SHARING!! Pretty much every CFL team will be funding the bombers so that their yearly expenses get pretty close to 12.5M(by the 2008 season)
guessing that providing the cap stays at 4.05 until after the 2009 season, most CFL teams mainly the Argos, Als, Esks and Lions will have around 4.2-4.3M in player expenses.
Unless of course teams actually stay below 4.05M just don't see that happening, high revenue teams won't care about putting 100-200K into revenue sharing

Oh and my bad, the blue have 4M in the bank going by their 2006 yearly finacial report.
in a half decent investment that should mean 200K off the interest.
Interestingly the esks got a 5.7% interest in 2006 off their investments.(good amount)

KEY POINT TO THIS!!
The Bombers are currently in a situation to break-even or make money. NOT to get back into debt.

Yes my posts are long and it's fun.

NOW for asper buying the team/new stadium deal:

the 25M Asper is putting into the retail area, doesn't matter.

If someone says they'll build offices half way across town if they get ownership of a team/build a new facility that shouldn't matter in transfer of ownership.

40M of 120M stadium, isn't enough for a 100% transfer of ownership with a 40 year lease on a 30M$ piece of land.
that 25M to retail/offices = 3.5-7M a year in profit for Asper(I do beleive that is his own numbers and the Canad Inn numbers from their plan)

If those numbers are true, it looks like he gets his 40M investment on the stadium back in 10 years from the offices/retail and like 5 more years to pay off the retail/office.
Now add in around 2-3M from yearly revenues atleast
Numbers from the Winnipeg Feasibility study, where it stats that the proposed destination centre would bring in an added 3.1M in revenues, Now I'm going with only 66% of that 3.1M increase

Seeing how Asper would still get the extra TSN/RDS Money over this season, for the blue I had that at 470K.
It looks like right there the Bombers will be making(profit) 2.8M a year? providing costs differences remain the same(yes player costs will rise, but so will tickets inflation saddly effects all)

Now just take that at 2.2M + 3.3M from the retail/offices hey that's 5.5M a year(average)(playoffs up that) and let's not forget Asper would get a GC in the 5 years following the new stadiums construction, so that can cover any differences if yearly revenues are actually lower.
It looks like Asper gets his whole 65M investment back in 10 years.
and yes he doesn't own the stadium(although he would have a long term lease to it) or the land(he has a 40 year lease to it)
He does own the retail/office area. which at worst would be worth 15M, 15 years down the road and the team which with having several years of making moeny should be worth 20M?

I do know numbers could be very far off as this is projecting 10-15 years in the future in which case huge economic changes can happen both good and bad so I'm sticking to average.

there are IFs that could make this plan pay back asper in less and in more time.

Luckily Asper, Leo Lehowski(owner of canad Inn spelt his name wrong) and the Bombers Feasability study all released enough to get a decent idea of how much yearly revenues everybody expects a new stadium + retail area to make.
Like how Leo said a turning the current stadium area into a retail area would get 7M a year in profit, with a 15 year tax exemption(of city business taxes not federal or provincial taxes)

Point of all this, is that Asper He is expecting to get back his investment in good order, it would look that he would get his money fast enough, it does depend on certain things, like the lease of the stadium.
With low-balled numbers he'd be get the initial investment money back in 12 years? then have the team(owned), stadium(leased), retail area(owned), place for free advertising.
What most teams dream of, ownership of his I beleive favorite team.(something most owners of say the NHL pay 5M a year in losses for).
Instead Asper is looking to Get his investment back and earn a profit off it.

Many things will change this of course. like if the CFL expands and how the next TV deal should be worth atleast 50% more(3M per team)(IMO)

the SMS(cap) in say 4 years will be up by 300-500K
But Revenues will likely be up by a good amount too.

people are not allowed to build malls in winnipeg?

if any other no-named guy was building a mall for $25M of his own money, there would be no issue.

apparently asper should pay more because of who he is?

please stop making crap up...there is NO REVENUE SHARING IN THE CFL.

i'm tired of reading your novel of non-sense.
im sure i could pick it apart for falsity after falsity, but whatever...keep dreaming that the bombers are worth mega-millions...i'm sure your the ONLY person on this site ( or planet ) who believes it.

There is Revenue sharing starting in 2007.

and yes I was off, going by the free press today the Bomber spent 600K in bonuses locking players up. atleast that is what Ed tait says, that alone means the blue would have been in line for a profit in 2006.(Re-signing: Roberts, Glenn, Simpsons, Armstrong, Brown, Malveaux) left out but is still included Khan.

Anyone can build a mall anywhere they like, but if you build it on Bomber property you must pay for that privilage should you not?

Someone wants to built on your lawn, you do have final say and would likely ask for something in return no?
That is the issue, the 25M$ retail/office development is on the Blue Bomber Stadium land, so Asper plans to turn 1/3 of stadium area into a retail area.

Now it is supposed to be a retail area to help the bomber, so it must be made sure that the retail and the bombers cannot be split for one.
But that is how he intends to cover any losses he receives.

where are u getting that theres revenue sharing in 2007????....this IS NOT happening...

please show an article proving that there is.

Revenue sharing = SMS

When a team goes past the 4.05M cap they pay a luxury tax, that Luxury tax money goes to help out low revenue teams.
4.05-4.15M = 1$ to 1$ penalty(up to 100K)
4.15M-4.25M = 2$ to 1$ penalty(up to 400K)
4.25M-4.35M = 3$ to 1$ penalty(up to 900K)

That's basicly sharing Revenues since it should be pretty well known that BC, MTL, TO, EDM will be spending 50K-150K over the soft cap.

the term I used was wrong, it should be.. Salary tax, resulting in revenues being shared
Sorry, but that is really long.

The thread on the Tax is on the CFL.ca website under the game - Salary management.

haha, unless every team stays under the 4.05M the cap, don't see that happening.

I fully expect and Want BC, EDM, MTL and TO to spend 4.2M and pay what is that.. 1.2M(combined) to the low revenue teams.