Face facts We have to fix this City

As a taxpayer I know that the City has the Future Fund, and I know that we have a brown field known as the former Rheem Site. Correct so far?

Why hasn’t any elected official ever suggested that we simple take 3.7 million out of the future fund to clean up this brown field? What gives?

I have lived in Hamilton for fifty years and this is the first time any games of importance have ever been awarded to my City. Using this as my formula that means every 50 years or so we will spend 60 million dollars to clean up one brown field.

I am not liking the math much!!

It’s insane to use this project and the awarding of the games as a tool for cleaning up this one brown field in a City that boasts many.

The job of our elected officials is to promote and manage as well as maintain.

I find it shameful and disgraceful that our mayor and others feel spending 60 million on the Rheem site is justified when that same 60 million could be used in cleaning up 15-20 other properties so badly in need all over our City.

If the 60 million was invested into 15-20 salable usable appealing properties, funding an additional 60 million into a stadium sports and entertainment district would become a much easier process and a profitable one as well by use of revenues created.

If you agree with running a City as a business then its time we ask City Hall to spend and invest BIG TIME with our monies to take a chance on growth, or other words to sink or swim.

My friends this is the way our Caretaker has to view his investment as a business with risk, risk that is personal, risk that can effect his own life as well as his family, his investors and his many employees. Not to mention us loyal TiCats fans.

We read how people with no investment no risk at all think Bob Young is being selfish and self serving, all things said by those who have nothing to lose.

I love my City and I love the TiCats seems they go hand in hand, I am more then willing to risk my own money through taxation and my time to see that both exist and succeed long into the future.

I suggest that a referendum be placed on the next ballot that asks the voters to decide if the future fund should be allocated and used to once and for all clean up this City.

As for the Pan Am games Hamilton should simply pass and as a community unite with Mr. Bob Young and all possible investors in a true open partnership to create a legacy that one-day we can all be proud of.

Amazing post man or miss ! That kind of fairness and vision you should run for mayor.

i agree. run for mayor dude or city councillor. if i lived in hamilton, you'd get my vote :slight_smile:

Ridiculous! You say spend the $60m on this and then spend another $60m on that.

From where does this the second $60 come? Are you supporting a major tax increase to support your idea?

Furthermore, the $60 investment on a west harbour stadium brings in another $55m or so from the province and feds and hopefully another $25 to $50m of private money.

It’s a no brainer and smart thing to do. That’s about a $150m investment that costs the city inly $60m.

$90m of “free” money spent on our city. $90 that would be lost if we passed on the games as you suggest. :thdn:

Oh Dear……….. You’re totally missing the point Captain

I never said spend on “this and that? I will try one more time. In my opinion and it’s just my opinion, try not to be offended. If the 60 million dollars were used to clean up 15-20 problem properties across the City of Hamilton, the end result would be the city owning 15-20 very usable, valuable, salable holdings.

The revenues from this could be astronomical, and in saying that these gains would be realized through taxation for many years, thus creating a surplus designated for such things as investment costs or financing costs for major city projects like a stadium.

As it stands with the current plan by your numbers we will receive aprox 55 million from the Fed & Prov governments and use 60 million of city money for a total of 115 million to clean up “one? brown field that by the Mayor’s estimate would only cost 3.7 million. Yes in this current plan there would be a stadium build, but this “stadium? with 15 thousand seats would become a burden on this city rather then an asset.

It has become very clear that private investment for a Harbour Front Stadium is not going to happen. Live with that!! The plan is dead and a new plan has to be realized. My point is simply it’s a bad invest to spend 115million of anybody’s money to clean up “one? brown field in a city that sadly has way too many.

What I find ridiculous is that this debate is even taking place, that “our? Mayor is even contemplating full steam ahead when the boats only got one ore in the water.

I stress that there is no longer “Private? money.


Solid posts, justafan. Well said.

With no Pan Am games.. comes NO stadium for the Cats.. no STADIUM for the Cats.. means NO Cats for the city.... BOTH the city and the HTC need each other.. both need to grow up and learn to get along!!!
Bob and Fred... In the corner!!


Got it. You want the city to engage in real estate speculation. :roll:


If it were that simple, real estate agencies would have been all over that long ago.

Far too sensible. At the end of the day both parties will have to compromise. Or else bye bye Hamilton Tiger-Cats, hello un-used 15 000 seat white elephant stadium.

The city should try working with Mr Young, and likewise. But too me it seems the mayor is a bit stuck in his ways. Some of issues the Ti-Cats have are very reasonable concerns...

Some of the Ticat concerns are reasonable, as are some of the concerns of H. Turkstra, Sam Merulla, and anyone else that has used the media to communicate their competing agenda.

The mayor should stick to his guns. It's not like the Ticats just found out that the city is considering building a new stadium. This process has been going on for years, and it has been a long, hard and EXPENSIVE struggle just to get to where they are now. The mayor isn't promoting the West harbour because he went for a walk there last week and found that Rheem property offputting - they've been studying this for years and decided that, with many, many factors considered, that site has the greatest potential to be the catalyst for something much bigger.

It would be a mistake, after 10 years of investment in a process, to just just throw it all out and start over every time some stakeholder with a different agenda puts in a call to the Spec.

The Ticats are a stakeholder. But the city and its current and future residents are the only stakeholder that matters in the long run. If a new stadium is built, the city will have to maintain it and all of the surrounding infrastructure for another 75 years. Are Mr. Young and Mr. Mitchell making a 75-year commitment? Are they making any committment - if so, I haven't heard much about that - surely their whole argument doesn't come down to the idea that unless they can erect a big corporate logo on the exterior of a building beside a major highway (they call it visibility, I think) the Ticats can't be a viable business.

The city should listen to the Ticats,ike they should listen to any significant stakeholder but, in the end, they should not change course now because of implied threats from one minor stakeholder

I get the feeling the tiger-cats are never going to be happy unless they own the stadium.The Skydome was built for 570mil and later sold to the Blue Jays for 25mil.If the Tiger-cats threaten to fold or even worse,fold the team for a year,the stadium becomes worthless.They could then pick it up for a penny.Better for them that the stadium be built on a nice chunk of land with lots of parking(they would make nothing off municipal parking)and they could make a good buck selling the naming rights at a location that is clearly visible from the highway.Maybe it's time we go the way of the Green Riders and protect our investment.

Bingo. It is a well documented business model in the sports biz to "own the environment". The parking, the naming rights, the concessions, broadcast rights, full time facilities like sports bars or restaurants in the stadium, merchandise sales, rights to all other events at venue, and everything else that can be used to wring a buck out of the ticket buyer. The Arprior (err, Ottawa) Senators are a great example.

The old romatic notion of wandering out of the Fenway (for example) and into a historic local watering hole for a few beer doesn't sit well with that business philosophy. It makes sense that an owner would prefer a building that is isolated from all other commercial interests that aren't paying them some kind of fee.

Nothing wrong with that philosophy if the owner is willing to put up the money for the facility and all surrounding infrastructure. You want to own the environment, then pay for it. But there is something wrong with helping to lobby all levels of gov't for infrastructure funding on the basis of the huge benefits to the larger community and then, once the money is committed, derailing the process and insisting that the stadium be built in a huge parking lot somewhere, cut off from everything else except a highway exit, and where you can control all of the commercial activity.

What's that cliche - put up or shut up.

I agree 100% with captain. The purchasing of 15-20 problem properities on the outside seems like a good idea, but really its a horrible one to put it lightly. If this idea was a sound one and profit was to be made private investors would have scooped it up ages ago. In order to turn profit the updated houses would likely need to be sold for 275,000 to 325,000. The demographics of these problem spots make these prices unaffordable. Its not just 15-20 problem properities in these area's the who area tends to be an undesirable location. The people who can afford these prices won't touch them due to location and will have to be sold at huge loss to the city. The stadium one isn't just being funded by the city this is a one shot deal for funding from other area's likely will never come again. The stadium although location is being debated there is a bigger picture then just a stadium the plan to have retail etc involved makes it more appealing then said real estate purchases.

Now I don't think anyone will deny this city needs fixing and needs big business back in the city especially in the downtown core to bring people here. My suggestion has long been to give some pretty nice tax breaks to companies who set up shop downtown and even bigger ones to companies who employ more then 300 or 400. Hopefully this would bring some jobs and companies relocating from other communities to our core. Currently there is a ton of empty space downtown that has sat this way for years where zero tax dollars are being collected. Something is better then nothing at this point. We need employment downtown that pays better then average. Once this happens purchasing of property may become lucrative as the desire of people to find quality housing close to work becomes a reality. Downtown imo will never be successful again until there is good jobs down there once again. Stelco and Dofasco a lone will never again support Hamilton like it used to. Our city needs to figure out fast how to get jobs back to Hamilton and the only way I can think is tax breaks and cheaper rent or purchase price then other communities in the GTA.

Sometimes simple is the best solution and you can’t make money without spending money.

Thank you for the great responses. The point of my exercise was to determine if the City’s investment in the West Harbour was of any value or not.

Hamilton created with its money a park setting, great place for families and festivals. It created something I’m sure we are all proud of and one could say because of this investment by the City it has made the Rheem site in the City’s opinion a viable option for a stadium.

Possibly as a result of the tax money spent in this area Hamilton has been blessed with a 55 million dollar investment from other levels of government, and awarded a part in the Pan Am games.

Not understood is the reason for the choice of Hamilton as a location for the stadium. What went wrong? Have we been awarded the stadium because we are in need of one, or because the investment in our Harbour Front made it an appealing place to hold this event?

By appealing I mean profitable for the event organizers.

As for the City being real estate speculators that is exactly what they are and have to be. The City’s responsibility is to create and atmosphere that attracts new investment and new citizens. As most of us know when we list our homes for sale the first thing we do is improve its appeal.

Next time you talk to a City official ask how many of your tax dollars were invested into the infrastructure that helped create the developments at the top of the Red Hill Creek Expressway and when will we see returns on this investment.

In my opinion by the development that has taken place the returns are already flowing in.
(Examples are new businesses and homes)

Mr. Bob Young as a businessman is only trying to say that in that location that is the West Harbour there is not enough money being spent to make this investment a viable one. If you want a West Harbour stadium ask your councilor to start a motion to build and fund a perimeter road that links the 403 directly to Harbour front and Burlington street, otherwise if we don’t make investment into this site it will just be a burden.

It really is simple, the City’s responsibility and us as citizens is to make our City more appealing so that business and families can prosper. At the end of the day we all want investments (our tax dollars) to benefit all of us and not be a drain financially.

To those who think Mr. Bob Young has to in anyway invest personal monies into something that does not appeal to him, nor in anyway is profitable to him I suggest that you PM him with your donation asap to make this process more financially viable for him and any other private investors involved

....And to those who don't think Young should invest his money in the city's plan then they ought to suggest he buys a site , builds a stadium where and when he wants with his money. Send him a PM or letter of encouragment in that regard.

....And to those who don't think Young should invest his money in the city's plan then they ought to suggest he buys a site , builds a stadium where and when he wants with his money. Send him a PM or letter of encouragment in that regard.
So the solution is to have a stadium built by the city that sits empty after the 2 weeks and Bob build his own. Bob needs the city and the City needs Bob to make this project work. Otherwise we have a stadium that becomes a burden to the taxpayers much like Copps.

Copps is a "burden" ?

As far as a "solution" goes if really you believe in free enterprise and the free market , a system you made your fortune from, dont you then have the freedom to go your own way and solve your own business dilemmas.

It's neat when you can get tax payers to do some of the heavy lifting but sometimes you cant have it both ways.

There's a principle at stake here.

I haven't posted for some time, I've been waiting for something new and it looks like this weekend has given me that. While I think the West Harbour could work, as other posters have mentioned I don't think it can without major changes to access roads. As far as driving to games and using public transit my wife and I have used both for games or being dropped off and busing home. So walking downtown isn't an issue to us, however ,we have driven to Bayfront Park for fireworks (only once) traffic out was a nightmare and I suspect for Ti-Cat games it would only be worse. So to me as a taxpayer that's a big concern. I'm not quite sure how this will help downtown re-developement either, I'd buy into that if Jackson Square was fully occupied but wouldn't new developement on the Bayfront just draw more people away from existing buisiness? As far as other sites for the stadium I would be very surprised if the NEC would approve Chedoke Golf Course, I would go to games in Aldershot but if the stadium is in Burlington please don't use any money from Hamilton to fund it, as for downtown, Detroit has a plan to demolish a number of derilect and abandoned buildings, maybe Hamilton should look into a plan like that.

At this point we are building a 15 thousand seat Pan Am stadium nothing more nothing less.

Bob Young doesn't have to invest or support or even own the Ticats. It is the City of Hamilton and our passion as fans that adds the emotional drain to the financial drain and that is the card our Mayor is playing.

That is UNFAIR