Ending the NFL in Toronto MYTH

Let's finally end the NFL in TORONTO myth. :rockin:

Here are the reasons that the NFL doesn't want or need to come to Canada :thup:

  1. The NFL is not stupid. They DO look at T.V. ratings and TRUE paid attendance in any market , including Toronto and Vancouver.

Lets look at a history of the NFL games in countries other than the U.S.

They have had EX and regular season games in JAPAN , ENGLAND and MEXICO.
NFL games in those countries sold out every year that they have played there and in much bigger stadiums than the ROGERS CENTER. They still go to most of those places every year. Why didn't they come to Toronto every year?
Toronto is certainly closer to the U.S. than TOKYO and LONDON are?

Now lets look at what has happened in Canada.

In VANCOUVER there was an ex game at B.C. PLACE , which was more than half empty.

The first EX game played at the old SKYDOME [Cleveland Vs. New England] bombed at $50 for each ticket.
The TORONTO media's excuse then was that this game did not get sanctioned by the NFL even though the NFL Commish. and Jim Brown came to Toronto to sell the game because ticket sales were so bad.

So the next time the NFL came to Toronto , ticket prices were dropped to $30 each and they had the BILLS play in 2 of the games.
Even with all of those goodies the 2 games DIDN'T truly sell out.

The NFL stopped coming to TORONTO for years but they still went to TOKYO and MEXICO every year. WHY NOT TORONTO or VANCOUVER?

Next came the BILLS in TORONTO games.

So far those games have been a complete disaster for ROGERS who paid 78 million to get 8 games.
That is 2 times the BILLS regular budget for 8 games in , Buffalo. ROGERS thought that the people in the Toronto area would pay ANYTHING to see the NFL. :roll:
None of those games have come close to selling out and they were forced to lower ticket prices and give away 10s of 1000s of free tickets to each game. The last game sold only 29,000 tickets [or so they say]. :lol:

Don't you think that the NFL actually looks at the Canadian PAID attendance numbers? :cowboy:

  1. T.V.

The CFL , IS THE SECOND MOST WATCH TEAM SPORT BEHIND HOCKEY in Canada. :rockin:

CFL regular season games usually outdraw the NFL's regular season games 3 and some times 4 to 1.
Even in , ONTARIO.

BELL which owns TSN is not going to give up it's second highest rated sports games and / or it's number 1 rated yearly GREY CUP Championship.

The CFL also helps BELL & TSN with it's Canadian content regulation requirements. :wink:

  1. The BILLS are going to stay in BUFFALO even after the owner dies. He has said so many times.
    12 U.S. cities actually want an NFL team and the next team is going to be in , L.A. L.A. America's SECOND largest market , not it's 4th.

  2. There are many more CFL fans in ONTARIO than NFL fans.

    There are about 10,000 season ticket holders from Canada going to BILLS games.

The HAMILTON and ARGO season ticket holders are almost triple that 10,000

Season ticket holders put their money where their mouth is because they pay to see games and don't just watch games on T.V. for FREE.

The ARGOS have had 4 years of a terrible football team. More people will come when they start winning more.
All CFL teams have had bad periods of attendance , not just TORONTO or HAMILTON.
Toronto , doesn't have the only PRO football team in the GTA and over the border.

  1. The NFL hates when people say things [write things] in the media.
    Toronto mayor's brother DOUG didn't do an NFL in Toronto team any favours by saying that NEW ORLEANS could move there :roll:
    The NFL asked him to apologize in public. :oops:

The TORONTO sports media hates the CFL but constantly makes fools of themselves saying very little negative about the NFL. They either have no idea what is going on in their own back yard or ROGERS are their masters. :roll:
You will rarely see / hear anything truly negative about the BLUE JAYS , RAPTORS , the NFL and even the LEAFS but they are all over , the CFL. Trust me you will not see words like mine written here in any Toronto newspaper or on any sports radio.
Sadly , the media wants to keep the NFL in TORONTO , myth alive.
I can't name other country in the world that tries to kill it's own Traditions / institutions.
All these dumb CANADIAN "sports writers" do is help hurt the CFL and they will never get what they want.
They just help AMERICANS get richer.
It is really pathetic. :cry:

Reno facelift of Ralph Wilson Stadium in Buffalo with long term lease?

Need I say more?

Great points !!!!

And the Grey Cup 2012 in Toronto has sold almost 40,000 a year before the game, not bad AH !!!!!!!! :thup:

that's pretty good. 40,000 for Toronto already is a good #. how many of those are Toronto citizens? or Ontario Citizens for that matter??

you watch, by July there'll be 55,000 sold. (or whatever the # is)

they'll sell out. the thing they need to solve is the atmosphere of the week before it.

it would help if Toronto was either in it or had a really good season! like 11-7 or 12-6 and first place.

While I agree with the main sediments of the post, there are a few points of clarification:

  1. The American Bowl game in Vancouver was sponsored by the BC Lions and the owner claimed he sold 35,000 tickets and 40,000 attended the game (although BC Place did look only half full for the Seahawks vs 49ers).

  2. The Bills owner said he'd "like the Bills to stay in Buffalo", but the team will be sold to the highest bidder upon his death due to the onerous US estate taxes. But no NFL team can relocate to Toronto while a Buffalo team exists as they are considered part of the same NFL market. Toronto is actually the 8th largest metropolitan area in North America.

  3. The Bills said last year that had 5,700 subscribers with Canadian addresses, a 30% increase since the Bills in Toronto series started (we can assume that many subscribers buy 2 or more tickets). The Bills have said that up to 15,000 Canadians attend the annual Canada Day game in Buffalo.

  4. The Toronto media is very quick to criticize the CFL and very faint with praise...while shortcomings about the other "major league" teams is ignored (like the Blue Jays lying about their attendance and TV ratings, losing $30 million a year and having a fan base that averages over 70 yrs old)...or the terrible TV ratings for the Raptors and TFC. The Globe & Mail newspaper used to be known as "Canada's National Newspaper" but is now an "Official Sponsor of the NFL". And the mayor's brother is a fool. :wink:

I have to agree here as I just noted moments ago in another thread, but instead of merely complaining about the NFL I think more should be done otherwise in Ontario:

[url=http://forums.cfl.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72613#p1274367]viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72613#p1274367[/url]

It baffles me what is stopping you all as is certainly not all Rogers as I detest like I do any cable company in North America.

They all use their legal monopolies or oligopolies for various political clout more than delivering better service as they jack up their rates no matter how the economy is performing.

very perceptive and valid observations sadargofan. :thup:
Couldn't have expressed it any better.

hopefully your moniker will change to happyargofan this season if the Argos fortunes are reversed.
and I'd love to see a heated Hamilton/Toronto battle for the East crown this year. :rockin:

I remember everyone saying that the Bills playing in Toronto would be the end of the CFL... boy, were they ever wrong... if anything, the CFL has gotten stronger... Toronto is a great hockey market, despite the fact that the Leafs suck just about every year, but other than that, its not a great sports town... the Blue Jays were the "it" team for awhile, and now it seems that Toronto FC has that moniker now. One wonders how long that will last though...

Toronto has the opportunity to be the classiest organization in the CFL if the people with money there put their minds to it and built the best CFL stadium going. A $300 mill CFL stadium would be awesome with a great owner like Braley or a big company like Rogers. Right now the NHL can't even play an outdoor classic there because BMO is too small and Rogers Centre doesn't open up in the winter, plus it's the old bowl design anyways which doesn't nothing to inspire nostalgia, horrible design that isn't used any longer.

A $300 mill stadium in the NFL would be laughed at though and Toronto building a $600 mill or so NFL stadium or maybe more would be just an average stadium in the NFL, a "so what" stadium for the NFL and that's not what Toronto wants to be I'd say.

I was at that game honestly no lie it looked like maybe 9,000 to 10,000 people there. I remember going to Lions games when the attendance was 16,000, and those games looked more full.

If after blowing millions on the Bills series Rogers still wants into the NFL, they're dumber then I thought.

I'm no rocket scientist, but why spend billions on a team and a new stadium for the NFL, when you can get a CFL
team for peanuts, and be in a league that is more popular then the NFL in Canada, and almost as popular as the NHL
in Canada?

Where your company will get national exposure in a popular national league.
Where your team gets coast to coast national TV coverage
Where operating expenses are peanuts

Where you have a solid fan base.
Where you host a GRey Cup game and make millions.
And where if you invest in the CFL it proves you're a good Canadian citizen, and gives you a good name across Canada.

Intstead for some reason they wanna blow their brains out on trying to make these American sports popular in Canada?
Like I say.
I'm no rocket scientist, but these guys are idiots.

Not that I follow it a great deal, but it seems as though that novelty has worn off, or is starting to.

There are so many reasons for the NFL not to come to Toronto/Canada that I’m not worried one bit. Legal, political, labour, TV,fan pressure… and frankly 33 teams is an awful number to work with.

Funny thing is I have friends in Austin who hold season tix to the Cowboys and they drive and fly 200 miles to go to games without blinking. Buffalo is 100 miles from Toronto…

I would even be surprised if this deal was extended. That was a ton of money thrown out the window for a company laying off employees in its core business. :wink:

All very good points and very true, so I won't repeat them, but I still maintain even if an NFL team goes to Toronto (won't happen), it will not have a big impact on the argos.

Could have a big impact on the Blue Jays though that would be seen as playing in a very inferior stale "baseball" park.

Those are all good points, but I will give you over 2 BILLION reasons why the NFL is never coming to Toronto.

  1. NFL does not allow corporate ownership. Rogers cannot buy a team. You would need one of Canada's billionaires to buy an NFL team and move it to Toronto.

  2. When Ralph Wilson dies and the team is put up for sale, the team goes to the highest bidder. True the team could stay in Buffalo or go to Toronto, but you will be bidding against several American Multi-billionaires who might want to put the team in Los Angeles, as a second team in Chicago, or down in San Antonio-Austin in football crazy Texas. Regardless of where the team goes it will cost somewhere over a $1BILLION dollars to purchase the team.

  3. The Rogers Center is not an NFL stadium. Any billionaire that spends $1 BILLION on buying an NFL team would have to spend another BILLION dollars+ building an NFL stadium. Toss in a training facility and a new owner is looking at spending $2.1BILLION dollars for a Toronto NFL team.

  4. Most NFL teams make less that $50 million profit per season. Spending $2.1BILLION in order to make $50 million gives you about a 2.3% ROI.

  5. So who in Canada is so crazy about football and has a spare $2.1 BILLION to spend on a team (with a 2.3% ROI) with very little fan interest and a constant struggle to sell out their home games. Where is this super rich football crazy fan? Why don't they already own a CFL team?

  6. If you had a spare $2.1BILLION to spend on a Toronto sports team, would you not buy MLSE for $1.3BILLION and pocket the rest?

As I posted before...... an NfL team in TO would bringm in only about 10 million in TV revenue.... each NfL team brings in 200 million(once the new TV deal kicks in......
Where would Toronto get the 190 million is anyones guess......but Ill tell you where they are not getting it from,the other 31 NFL teams...... The Raptors would not exsist if the other NBA teams did not subside them to the tune of 20 million a season.... However I do not believe that NFL teams would willingly give away 10 times this amount...
If you think they would...give your head a shake.... NFLE was shut down because of a measly 30 million a year or 1 million dollars per team.

I am not calling you a liar, but I was there too - no way there were only 9,000 - 10,000 there. You must be mistaking it with another event. John Wirtanen addresses this debacle in a whole chapter entitled "A License To Print Money" in his must-read book "Thrown To The Lions."

  • Attendance was 45,202. There were obviously some sparse sections in the upper bowl at BC Place, but 10K it wasn't.
  • David Braley made a $200,000 profit, according to the author
  • A disturbing number of fights broke out. According to then President Glen Ringdal, "there were two big fights and both were real donnybrooks. There weren't a large number of disruptions, but the ones we had, were very visible."
  • With the purchase of one ticket to the Lions' 7/20/98 game against the Stamps, an American Bowl ticket stub was worth another ticket of equal value. As Wirtanen notes, "some fans thought it a clever marketing tool; others shook their head in digust, maintaining that it only further cheapened the Canadian product."

Amazingly, despite this, Braley was on record until fairly recently as saying he wanted to do another one. Maybe Bobby Ackles finally slapped some sense into him!

Didn't the NFL play a couple of American Bowl games at the Skydome as well? (in the 90's I believe)

If so, what were the attendance figures of those particular contests?

I had read that a NFL stadium with roofs that open now has to be pointed in a certain direction for shadows and none in canada point that way.