I wonder if it's too predictable to think the usual suspects will automatically disagree or try to discredit this report?
This just appeared on CHML SITE, haven't had time to read it all yet, thought it might interest some of you.[url=http://www.ticats.ca/uploads/assets/HAM/pages/TicatsEconomicImpactP4410September2010.pdf]http://www.ticats.ca/uploads/assets/HAM ... er2010.pdf[/url]
Sorry Oakham, didn't scroll down far enough to see you had already posted the link, will try to remove it k.
I’m surprised that no ones had any comments about this report. I have read it and even did some of the math not to disprove it but more so to understand it. It’s dead on and I think it deserves allot more consideration.
Keep in mind what it doesn’t report is if the TiCats and Bob Young related Companies would realize any profit while by its activities 1.7 billion dollars of economic spin offs will benefit Hamilton.
Tourism here in Hamilton is very bad it’s stated that we require 800,000 more visitors per year to compare to Kitchener and London type stats.
Jobs image and all the spin offs are why we need these kind of projects and is why we need a business minded council in Hamilton if we have any hope of growing and improving.
Thanks for posting this report guys interesting. No doubt business guru Marvin Ryder will dispute such numbers I'm sure. Hey Marvin?
just, weird that Hamilton doesn't compare with those tourist "hotbed" cities of London and Kitchener! Yikes. :o
Although maybe these cities do more conferences than Hamilton and junior hockey is big in these cities with London packing 9000 per game and I know that people from out of town travel to London to attend games.
Hamilton might want to try and keep the Cats I would say.
Id enjoy seeing our friend Marvin break this down, but I get a feeling that wont happen because its accurate and would raise issue with his "expert" opinion.
As for tourism, its true Earl that other places do a much better job and to add to the Hamilton problem our image stinks and that plays a factor no matter what events are held. Thus the highway access for a stadium. Any good sales man will tell you the hardest part of the job is getting the customer in the door. But once in sell sell sell sell !!!!!
Hamilton cant afford not to build this stadium !!
And here we go. Although he says it is still in the $60 million range/year (about half what the TC's say). He provided a previous number a few months ago...was it the same?
Marvin Ryder is the guy who said it is deceptive to call the team the Hamilton Tiger Cats because it suggests a sense of community collective when in reality Bob Young owns the team. I guess he think every other professional sports team in the world is owned by the city they play in.
The Rogers' Blue Jays sure got smacked last night, eh? I wonder if the Ontario Teachers' Union Maple Leafs will end up in the league cellar again. Will the David Braley Lions file a grievance over the David Braley Argos signing Foley?
Marvin Ryder should stay within the cozy confines of academia and out of the real world.
MRX is part of the Corporation and I would imagine it follows the team therefore it needs to be factored in. Marvin Ryder claims taxes paid through wage is double dipping, maybe thats true nationally but it sure isnt true locally as those wages I believe 250 of them would no longer be spent in Hamilton on such things as homes. Do the math, if of those 250 jobs 150 of them use their wage to buy a house in Hamilton and they pay 3000 per year property taxes it means the city will collect 450,000 in taxes x 10 years 4.5 million, take the 4.5 million and expand it into all the spin offs all others employed just because the City collected 4.5 million in taxes then include the spin offs of each employee spending the rest of thier income within the City. It goes on and on. The direct impact by the team on the City may be 50% of the total reported but the direct impact of MRX and all related ventures is much greater.
Ryder also discounts the Grey Cups (2 promised and funded by Bob Young) which could account for 200 million. Ryder discounts the NASL team, yet there is nothing in the report about the teams revenues, it only accounts for its expenses spent in Hamilton. The report clearly includes all benifits coming forth because we will invest in a new stadium.
Under Bob Young the TiCats are more a part of an Innovation in the changing world of sports entertainment and this company should be welcomed, I doubt Marvin Ryders poorly thought out opinion, and I d question anyone who simply believes his word when a report that spells it out can be reviewed at any time.
I can take any report and subtract amounts to make it look different, but the facts here are MRX and the TiCats do employ many people the Grey Cup has been promised 2 in 10 years funded by Bob Young, he also holds the NASL rights and plans on spending money to field a team.
Thanks for the link Chew, missed it. Ha, you had to know ol Marvin would come out questioning but that's his role as a academic albeit I wonder if Marvin is called upon to reflect on other city spending initiatives? Hmmm, I wonder.
Marvin Ryder only has opinions at best.
I take issue with most of them. (cause he's usually just flat out wrong) :cowboy:
The McMaster professor who analyzed the economic impact statement said he doubted the Cats could host two Grey Cups in ten years, in an 8-team league.
As soon as a suitable stadium in constructed in Hamilton, the city will be first in line to host the Grey Cup. The league has given assurances to the team that this is fact. Assuming the league will rotate the game between the CFL cities, Hamilton would host another game 8 years later. So obviously Hamilton could host 2 GC within 10 years. The city would probably host even more GC's because Winnipeg and Regina are basically out of the rotation due to the lack of infrastructure and hotel rooms (and other factors) in their cities.
I also dispute his contention that "most" of the players spend "most" of the year away from Hamilton. The fact is that training camps start near the 1st of June and the season runs until the final week of November. That's 6 months right there. Many, if not "most" players arrive early for training camp to get into shape, setup a household, etc. Since the professor is splitting hairs, the fact is "most" players spend more than half the year in Hamilton. There are also many import players who live in the Hamilton area year-round.
I still think the team should be planning and doing studies that allow for fanbase growth with 30k+ seats to start with ala Regina and Winnipeg. Design it so that 20-30 years down the road you can have 40,000 or more permanent seats with stadium expansion. I understand that just getting 25k is a tall order atm, but the two sides really need to come together in the studies each side commissions to think about generating a bigger economic impact for the team and Hamilton in the future.
Just look at Edmonton. we're rushing electrical and platform upgrades to the LRT system to run longer trains because city staff only planned for 75,000 daily riders this year while we have 100,000 now....
These are also great points, you can be sure Marvin Ryder will be quiet about or try his best to shoot down this new report because it proves that he was wrong in saying the team has little economic impact, I think he compared it to being a little better then a mom and pop operation.
I dont no why he is called on to speak all the time, he is for the most part wrong IMO.
The CFL is growing across the country. Six teams out of eight teams have made renovations, in progress or making plans for new. Marvin Ryders usually stay inside university walls because they can't make it in the real world.
So......at the emergency Council meeting on August 12th, a Councillor raised the question what the economic benefit is to the City of Hamilton that the The Tiger-Cat’s generate. The Mayor didn’t know and not one Councillor spoke up. In fact it was dead silence until Chris Murray said something to the effect that he would have to look into it based on this and that. But, now all of a sudden, the Tiger-Cat’s appear with an economic impact analysis that states the economic impact will be over $1.4 billion over the next 10 years with a new stadium and related “Bob Young Group of Companies?. This includes ....$580 million boost to local income, and $450 million in tax revenues.
Ok, so that $1.4 billion impact works out to about $140 million a year. (That’s still mostly money generated from taxes of the residents of Hamilton and Ontario that are just spread around and not actually new monies or money generated from outside sources. Anyway, you’d think with that kind of economic impact that somebody on Council or the Mayor would have had an answer last August.
So here are my questions:
- With respect to this “potential? economic impact... what the heck is a “Bob Young Group of
Companies... and related activities?? (Please don’t tell me this includes soccer and baseball.)
- How does Bob project $140 million / year in economic benefits for us if he gets his stadium, yet apparently has continued to personally lose $7 million a year with the highest attendance average this decade since the
1960's playing in a stadium basically rent free. (This year’s average is over 24,000.)
Btw, for “those? that have raised this issue.....if every Tiger-Cat player spent his entire salary before taxes in Hamilton for the next 10 years. That would generate about $50.25 million dollars over 10 years. (Current team cap is around $4 million and with inflation the projected cap would be a generous $6 million in 10 years.) The actual economic impact of Tiger-Cat players spending money in the City over the next 10 years would be more like (the very generous projection) of $5-10 million with a new stadium and that would be remain about the same if they continued to play out of IWS. Football, baseball, or soccer players (we have a better chance of selling outdoor concerts at IWS than the CP rail neighbourhood) under Bob’s projected “related activities? would not even come close to denting the huge taxpayer deficit that would be created with a new stadium and it’s related costs and upkeep. History shows that making money on a Grey Cup is a 60/40 crap shoot
Question 3) Why do I feel like I’m getting scammed by agendas that issue studies that try to sell inflated and misrepresented economic impacts?
Heck, your local 7/11 store could direct their own economic impact analysis that would include “related activities, GDP, etc. etc.? and convince you that their economic impact will be $15 million over the next 10 years.
You can not include profit and lose in an economic impact study.
If a company leaves Hamilton the economic impact is gone.
By holding events that bring visitors to Hamilton brings new moneys.
"Related companies" are the companies that own and operate the TiCats and are businesses that are NEW to Hamilton since Bob Young purchased the team out of bankruptcy.
The team has not made a profit at IWS since the 1960's and only exists because of deep pocket owners and loyal Hamiltonians.
The Grey Cup was only a failure here in Hamilton, go figure.
Basic math, if employees earn 10 million dollars and spend that then 285 people have the opportunity to earn 35000 a year, take that and purchase 285 homes and pay the city 3000 a year taxes 855,000 with which the City pays 24 employees 35000 thousand a year and so on .........
Lets talk ticket sales HST. income taxes deducted,
HSR drivers mechanics office staff, construction workers, steel workers,
Sponsor, naming rights bring new revenues to the sponsor that hires more employees etc etc .......
Bottom line is there WILL BE an economic impact Marvin Ryders 600 million or Bob Youngs 1.7 million.
Im betting on Bob Young !!!
OR WE COULD JUST PASS ON THE ENTIRE PROJECT and not have any impact.
This economic study was not done by Bob Youngs company. This is a very reputable company that did this study. People just do some research before they post on these boards. This economic study might be used as a selling feature to another city??? close by. There is no way any of the coucillors would understand the study. If they did then why haven't they stepped up and defended the cats stance? I've met Marvin a few times, a very nice man. My daughters prof awhile back. Smart man, just not a businessman. The real world would eat him up fast. Theres a huge difference between thinking about it and doing it. No doubt he can think, but doing things in the real world is a different story. If my employees were just thinkers, I'd be broke real fast. Really if the spec or chch wanted reality and a better insight on business events, they should be interviewing successful businesspeople.
I see some blogger at RTH is mocking this report with an article titled: Late, Outrageous, Insulting: A Book Review of the Ticats' Newest Work of Fiction
Man they have some TigerCat haters over there. :roll:
Bob Young is an IT entrepreneur and exactly the type of person the City of Hamilton should be trying to attract to things like an Innovation Park.