Does Bob count the 1928 Hamilton Tigers?

In the most recent Caretaker Update, Bob said at first that they didn't think that there were any Hamilton Grey Cups in a year ending with "8". Then, he talked about the 1908 Hamilton Tigers. But what about the 1928 Tigers? They beat the Regina Roughriders to win the Grey Cup. Do the Ticats claim that victory as their own?

I would believe so, since it is listed at the bottom of the website as one of their 15 grey cups.

I was wondering the samething, when I watched the video, and was wondering how much research they actually did, since they didn;t have to go far for the answer when it was on their own website lol :lol:

Maybe there Looking for 08 and not 28.
Maybe that why the did See the 1928 Team

(Onknight) Maybe there Looking for 08 and not 28. Maybe that why the did See the 1928 Team
Naahh

Both the 1908 and 1948 teams are Grey Cup champs, their names are on the trophy. We also have 16 cups, not 15. The 08 Tigers won the Grey Cup fair and square, and should be given their due!

Yea i was wondering that myself as well, as soon as he mentioned it I looked @ the bottom banner of the site and said to myself.. umm, 1928? lol

Does this mean the new line of Traditions gear will be getting a surprise markdown? :wink:

Not really, garney26. The Grey Cup was established by Earl Grey in 1909. The 1908 Tigers won the Dominion Championship all right, and should indeed be given credit for that, but there was no Grey Cup at the time. It is said that on the original base of the Cup, the '08 Tigers' name was on the plaque. This gives rise to some controversy, and the suggestion that we won the Cup that year. But we couldn't have, it didn't exist at the time.

:thup:

If there was a prize, Steve...you got it!

My Dad's 1936 GC ring says Dominion Champions 1936

The Ti-Cats are both the Tigers and the Wildcats. The 2 teams merged in 1950 to become the Tiger-Cats.

So any record for 1 of the 3 different versions of the team is a record for all of them.

While your observation is most certainly correct…that is not the question.

Lord Earl Grey donated the trophy in 1909.

The Hamilton team won the Dominion Championship in 1908.

The Dominion Championship continued and the Grey Cup was awarded to the winning team.

Actually the Earl of Grey donated the cup in late 1907 to be awarded to the dominion Hockey champions. When he was informed that Lord Stanley had already donated such a cup, he asked that it be instead rewarded to the dominion Rugby champs. An order was placed with the silversmith and the work began in the off-season between 1907 and 1908. In the fall of 1908 the league was informed of the trophy and the teams played the season with the expectation that the winners would be the first Grey Cup champions. However, after winning the championship the Hamilton Tigers were informed that there had been some sort of mix-up with Earl of Greys People and the silversmith and the trophy would'nt be available till later.time passed and before you know it the 1909 season was well under way. At that time it was decided that the league would hold the trophy until the 09 championship and have the 08 Tigers included later. Well it seems that the Argos were somewhat uncoperative in this endeavor, and not until 1912 when the Tigers were able to win the trophy did they hand scratch the 1908 Tigers on the original cup.

Was he a Lord, or an Earl?

Maybe Bob was implying a 100 year anniversary.

I was also surprised at Bob’s comments. I lobbied about three or four years ago on the old boards that Hamilton should host this year’s GC to honour the 1908 team. Maybe 2012 – to honour the Alerts? Wonder if the retro gear mentioned in the update will include a maroon and grey Alert jersey …?

Hey garney26, that's some really interesting information I hadn't heard before. Kudos to you, and I certainly am happy to stand corrected on it.

I knew about Earl Grey's intention initially to grant a trophy for the amateur hockey championship, and then switching it to football when he found out that hockey was "taken". And I have heard the bit about the delay in casting the Grey Cup. But I have never heard what you said about the league deciding as a result of that delay to award the Cup in 1909 instead of 1908, and to add the 1908 Tigers afterwards, and the Argos being uncooperative. That's really interesting, and foreshadows the rivalry between us and the dreaded Argos that we still have today, with no quarter given on either side on any issue.

Where did you get that info? I don't doubt you, I just enjoy CFL history very much (esp about the Cats and their predecessors of course), and am always interested in old tidbits like that. I'd love for us to be able to claim the 1908 Cup for sure, as well as just to read some more Canadian football lore. Appreciate if you could let me know.

Here's another issue re 15 vs. 16 Grey Cups... I can understand how and why we claim wins for the Tigers, Wildcats and Tiger-Cats, since the current team is the result of a merger between the other two (though it's a bit dodgy in that they were rivals and played against one another). But what about the 1912 win by the Alerts? They played in a different league from the Tigers, at the same time as the Tigers, so they too were rivals, just like the Tigers and Wildcats. Thing is though, I'm not aware that the Alerts merged with the Tigers in any way, so I don't see how the current Cats are descendants of the Alerts as they are of the Tigers and Wildcats. If they aren't descendants, then wouldn't it be the case that while there are 15 Cup wins we can claim for the Cats (including the 1908 win), the 16th (1912) is a win for the city but not for the organization?

Do you or anyone else here have anything that would shed light on that one?

stevehvh -- somewhere, there is a history of the club written by Jake Gaudar that uses the word "merge" to describe the end of the Alerts. It was my impression that the coach and some players from the Alerts joined the Tigers at that time.

I don't know of any solid history book covering this era that could clear this up. To find out for certain would require a long day with contemporary newspapers, but it should not be impossible.

During my time at the Hall of fame I was part of several research teams that worked with various authors on Grey Cup books.The documentation is scarce and second hand accounts. However, the original bands from the first cup clearly show hand scratched 08 champs for Hamilton and the original receipts for the silversmith dated in 08 as well. The 08 Tigers clearly felt they were the first winners.

Thanks very much, that's neat. I do know about the 1908 Tigers being on the original base, that's well documented. The part about the '08 Tigers thinking they were the first winners is interesting too. I wonder when and how things changed, so that people began to take the 1909 Cup as the first. Like HA1912GCC said, probably necessary to comb old newspapers etc. Maybe a project for next winter..... but it sounds like you and others have done some of that.

Funny how these things change. I know the CFL has decided that the 2012 Cup will be the 100th edition. That's based on counting the number of games played, allowing for no games played during World War One. But if you use the first one as 1909, then 2009 will be the 100th anniversary Grey Cup game. I know the field for the 1959 game had "50th Anniversary Grey Cup" painted on it, so that's the way people thought of it then. I wonder how and why the league changed its reckoning. Of course, if you count 1908, then this year's game will be the century mark.

All this stuff's a bit murky, but that's the fun of detective work I guess.

What's your take on the issue of "merger" of the Alerts with the Tigers?

The original cup was re-built at some point and the bands were saved at the Hall. They were on display for years, but drew little attention and were moved to archives in the 90's.I'm just speculating on the mergers but,I believe they were more motivated by the changing of the game.Rugby in Canada was moving away from the Welsh style it came from, and various leagues were competing for the gate. As one league would emerge as the leader, others were forced to jump or merge and city area teams eventually put forth there best players in one solid all-star squad to compete for the Grey Cup. Eventually it molded to the forward pass from scrimmage and down football of the 50's that we know today. Much the same as the Argos stopped being a few of the boys from the rowing club and U of T, to form a best of Toronto squad.