Dear Mr. Young re: stadium location

I would add my vote to deerhunter. Sure there is lots of potential land down there. Many homes and business need to be razed to make way for all the land needed for stadium and more importantly, parking. However, the issue still remains, how do you get there. Previous posts and threads complained about Upper James and Stone Church etc. Well, explain Barton, Bay, Strachan etc etc. Another point, I hope the stadium is built with the idea in mind to use it for as many events as possible, ie soccer, concerts etc. Is the west harbour/northend community ready for all this. To be viable, I am sure Bob Young is not going to sink money into this for 9 dates a year, maybe 10 unless he can hold the rights to other events at this venue. Think access and parking and not the 8 or 9 walks down memory lane.

However, the issue still remains, how do you get there.

How big of an issue is this? We are not talking a 60,000 seat stadium. And we are talking about free bus rides probably for game day with a ticket. The Bell Centre in Montreal, downtown, tight space really, holds 21,000 and I don't think they have problems. Yes, they do have a subway, grant you that. But don't we want to encourage people on the mountain and elsewhere to check out harbourfront for a change instead of just staying on the mountain, east end etc. all the time?

But if the planners see that west harbour will prevent people from going there because of access, maybe there is a problem that is too much of a problem, I don't know but I don't think so personally. Also, we are talking TiCat fans who want to be there and will find a way, I presume. Again, it's not like we're trying to fill a 60,000 seater and get all sorts of new fans from who knows where.

Yes, Hamilton is unique somewhat in southern Ontario with this mountain and these access compared with other cities in these parts, it's almost like 2 cities one on top of another. But consider that certain powers to be didn't consider it a problem closing the emergency department at the Henderson Hospital requiring someone with a heart attack on the mountain to have to get down to the General in the winter on potentially icy roads in bad weather where an extra 30 seconds could mean life or death. The decision got changed but mainly due to public outcry. So I'm not sure access is really all that much of a concern therefore and with a game, you do have people staggered where some want to get there 2 hours before, some an hour etc.

Even though I live out in the boonies and driving to a Mountain or Airport stadium would probably (but not definitely) save me time and money, I would rather see it in downtown Hamilton. West harbour, Confederation Park, I don't care, but if it isn't somewhere with great access to the Centre of the Universe (Toronto) we won't get the PanAm games. And no games, no stadium. There is no way Bob will spend his own money to, nor should we expect him to, build a stadium. I suppose he might if he got other private investors, but then good-bye HS sports at it.

Good evening . I hope everyone made a dump truck full of money today. I did ok but not nearly enough to get me out of red ink. Maybe tomorrow.

I like the posts here even if some are opposed to my ideas. I should say that I didn't mention the airport at all but, rather, the south mountain. I'm thinking of around the interchange of the Linc and the Red Hill expressways or even a little further west.

I also think this is in the perfect middle spot to cover all the housing surveys of various ages everywhere and accomodates out of town fans as far as easy accessability.

I do have a sure fire measure of where the big urban dollars will be and, as an added bonus, others do the free demographics analysis. It's called follow the Walmart stores. There are two relatively new Walmarts on Rymal Road alone. That says a lot.

--deer hunter--

Access/traffic is a valid point and a real issue, of course. Having lived there, I've seen what happens when there is a festival at Bayfront and, much worse, experienced all the drunk people that use Bay North as a dragstrip on their way rom Hess Village to Burlington street late at night. It's part of living in any city.

There are already some projects and plans underway that are intended to improve traffic flow in the New North End, stadium or no stadium. Among the current, planned or proposed projects.
-they're in the process of replacing the bridges over the sunken railbed, and the new bridges have a higher traffic capacity than what they're replacing.
-Bay will be redeveloped as a wider, higher capacity boulevard (like the current York Boulevard) from Copps to Bayfront Park.
-they will gradually choke off traffic through the north end residential neighbourhood (north of Strachan and the railbed) and increasing the capacity of a few main arterial and bypass roads. An example - close Bay Street North just past the entrance to Bayfront Park, replace the Bay North bridge with one that crosses the tracks, follows a widened, higher capacity Strachan which connects directly to Burlington Street at Wellington (basically creating a mini-expressway that bypasses that whole north end neighbourhood).
-Using the part of the railbed itself that is east of the waterfront marshalling yards to pull cars off of the north-south arterial roads by building "off ramps" into the railbed and out to Burlington street
-pull an arterial road off of York Blvd just past Dundurn Castle and link it into Stuart street to take the extra traffic coming in from West Hamilton and Dundas
-changes to Burlington street itself to improve the flow of traffic from points east and the highways.

Burlington Street itself is a large part of the solution to feeding the new waterfront/stadium - the people in the burbs will mostly use the Linc, 403, and RHE to get to Burlington Street, and then Burlington street to get to the stadium. People in the revitalized lower city and the gen 1 burbs near the mountain brow will use one of several improved arterial roads to get to the waterfront.

And everyone will have the opportunity to use any of the many improved public transit options that become viable once the waterfront becomes a thriving multi-purpose neighbourhood.

All of the streets and bridges in the area need to be replaced/repaired at some point, and much of the ample brownfield land can be reconfigured any way that makes sense to accomodate new traffic patterns. There's no point in looking at the current street grid and deciding this won't work ten years from now based on what's there now.

You also don't need parking for 15,000 cars for the stadium. Once Microsoft (for example) builds a new headquarters on Hamilton's beautiful waterfront, with parking for 2,500 employees, you can use their parking spots after hours.

When you've that much under-utilized (and therefore cheap) land to work with, you can completely reshape a city, given time, vision and a development friendly city.

If you can find parking for 30,000 on the lawns around IWS, surely you can accomodate that many in the bustling new, multi-use waterfront.

Follow WalMart - a good rule of thumb if you are looking to build a retail power centre.

On the other hand, a Super WalMart just opened in Burlington, at Plains and Brant, the edge of downtown. And the damnest thing was that there was a big public outcry and the city tried to prevent them from building there, but WalMart spent three years and who nows how much money fighting for the right to build at that precise location. Why do you suppose they didn't just give in and build on Dundas Street north of the city? There's a Home Depot opening on Queen Street in Toronto. It's amazing the urban places you're starting to find the big box stores as you drive around in the US these days.

BTW, your location isn't bad in my opinion - it's just that your location only gives you a stadium, where the other also rids you of a toxic industrial site that's holding back the growth of the city.


I like your mind. You're almost earning your spot as co-counsel with me if we were to take this to court and actually had a say in the outcome or decision.---I'm joking of course.

You proved my point about Walmart, but, in a scary way, just bolstered Mr. Young's statement about going wherever he needs to be. Your Plains and Brant example just opened the door for him. Don't remind him !! ---hehehe

Getting back to your thought about the toxic soil issue. Since when is the Owner of the Tiger-Cats responsible for the ultimate clean-up of poisonous sludge and having it inferred that if he doesn't locate the stadium there, this will remain a poisonous, toxic wasteland ? -----by the way, I'm not addressing you, yourself, section8since72.

If I was the owner of the Tiger-Cats, I'd look for any alternative rather than get in the middle of that kind of issue. If there is any poison in the land, I already mentioned somewhere else that the Haudenosaunee people from the Six Nations may just get involved in overseeing the clean-up under their rights given to them under the Nanfan Treaty of 1701 which, by the way, the City of Hamilton totally recognizes and plans for now.

Yes, the Six Nations also need to be consulted with on the Hamilton Mountain , but the last time I checked, the land up there is free and clear of old toxic waste and just needs their stamp of approval on any development plans. But, toxic soil near the water's edge in the North End?? Be careful here. They may have something to say about that and order a complete clean-up to their satisfaction while there is a window to do so. They are reasonable people but don't mess with the land without their input as Hamilton learned so well during the Red Hill Expressway construction. The message of the Haudenosaunee to us is to consult and accomodate and respect the land. And they should be included in the Pan Am Games project anyways because most countries involved have a rich Aboriginal Heritage to begin with.

My, oh my, this is a great conversation. I love it!

Speaking of court, deerhunter, Sam Merulla mentioned on cable 14 tonight

that Henry Turksta a prominent North End resident is against
a stadium being located in the West Harbourfront lands

and he may appeal to the Ontario Municipal Board to stop it.

Try to contain your glee. :wink:

Actualy Ronfromtigertown, that is news to me but it really goes in-line with what I have just vehemently warned Mr.Young against. This city we call Hamilton is pretty much in-line with the ficticious town of Hooterville.

and so it starts right? The political gamesmanship.

Mr Young! Read my arguments and get out of town! The --olde towne-- that is.

The Deja Vu case I made just started as --ronfromtigertown-- just informed us.

Go South (Mountain) ---"Young" (pun intended)--- man ! Be smart and stay the hell away from the idiots in the city-proper whether they are actually in power or are cling-ons, wannabes or otherwise---- all trying to stay in the loop and feel important.

Go South Mountain !! Your future clients are awaiting and you'll avoid all the crap from 200' down below the Jolley Cut.

The air is fresher and you will live longer.

Do your civic deed for this year, deerhunter,

take you in depth investigation into your site location,
architectural design and choice of builder and costs

directly down to the councillors at City Hall by tomorrow,

the poor blokes won't have time to re-load their muskets,
they have to make a decision by Monday Feb 23 2009. :wink:

The job is not tendered out so i can't. and if you think a vote will happen on Monday, you are smarter than I am. My prediction is that It won't happen and this whole thing will get mired down in political BS and ego tripping just like every other project does .

Remember Gore Park and of course the now famous 50 year fiasco called the Red Hill Expressway ? and let's not dismiss the Lister Block or the Hamilton and Scourge fumble. And how are the light standards doing at Ivor Wynne? They are crying already because they have to replace one at $50,000? Well, I hate to break the news but it had better be 4 at a total cost of $200,000.

I'd like to mention the exploding storm sewers and resulting disasters for homes and businesses in the East End.--------- but I won't.
If you prove me wrong about any of this, I will gladly stand before you all and say I was wrrrrrrrrrrrr------ong and take my lumps.

Mr.Young ! DO NOT GET CAUGHT UP IN THIS SOAP OPERA. Demand the south mountain or go elsewhere so the Tiger-Cats stay well clear of this nightmare which will develop.

True enough. Henry T and several other neighbours in that neighbourhood are against a lot of the development proposed there. Some of it makes sense to me, but some smacks of selfishness - as in, now that you all paid for nice parks for me to walk in, for god's sake don't do anything to encourage anyone else to enjoy them. To take it even further some were, and still are, against the development of the parks that are there already. And lots are against the festivals they hold there. Fighting for scarce on street parking'll do that to some people.

On the stadium location thing, I actually leaned toward thinking that the proposed area wasn't the right one for a lot of years, mainly on the grounds that a stadium would take up a huge chunk of scarce waterfront land and sit vacant for 350 days a year. My preference was for a location just east of Lakeport - right on Burlington Street for traffic flow and forming a barrier between industrial and recreational harbour.

But then as the years passed and I realized how unlikely it was that the city was going to be able to fund something like the purchase/cleanup of the marshalling yards without a games bid or some other major external infrastrucure money. If this is the only opportunity we're going to get, then better there than in some pasture somewhere south of Hamilton.

Not my area of expertise, deerhunter, this whole six nations thing, not going to comment. All I will say is that if you're going to build south, don't get within ten miles (or kilometres or whatever) of that damned river - otherwise you ain't gonna be done in time for the 2225 Games.

The Haldimand Proclamation stops at Haldibrook Road which is the border of Haldimand and Hamilton. There are no specific land claims in Hamilton but the entire City of Hamilton is still under the Nanfan Treaty of 1701 which gives the Aboriginals ultimate beaver hunting rights. As I said, the City of Hamilton has a policy to respect this Treaty and builds it into it's municipal and especially it's rural planning. And Hamilton takes this extremely seriously. Call the Mayor and he will tell you.

Having said all of that, do the natives want to hunt in your backyard on Aberdeen Avenue and Locke Street ? (using an example) Of course not.

But, they sure take an interest in undeveloped land or land that is poisoned but not quite paved over yet. and especially near a waterway by Hamilton Harbour.

All they want is to be included in the process and to protect the land as much as they can. They do understand necessary progress but all they ask is to be respected and part of the due diligence. Personally? I like that. They are an extra set of eyes which benefits us all.

Ok you guys, very well informed guys so I would say, is anything actually going to be decided on Monday?


Is HermanTurkstra on board with Henry Turkstra?

If so, toss in the towel on a stadium at the Waterfront.

No vote will happen if that is the case.

i don't know anyone named Henry but I sure know of Herman


Herman Turkstra is a Hamilton Ontario lawyer and businessman. He is a founding member of the law firm of Turkstra Mazza Associates with offices in Hamilton, London and Toronto. As a lawyer, Herman most recently focused on planning and environmental law and in particular the relationship of government to communities. He has represented Boards, municipalities, citizen groups and entrepreneurs.

Herman is currently on sabattical from his law practise and serving as President of ZIYP Inc. ZIYP is active in the use and development of business directories on the Internet and in print. Herman founded 701.COM and 701 Media Group which were purchased by the Toronto Star and now publishes directories to over 2,500,000 households in Ontario communities.

Herman has held a number of community and elected positions including elected member of the City of Hamilton's Board of Control, President of the Hamilton Law Association, Chairman of The Ontario Legal Education Council, Adjunct Professor of Law, University of Guelph, Vice President, Hamilton Philharmonic Orhcestra,Committeeman for Canada of the American Trial Lawyers Association, Member of Council, the Canadian Bar Association and as a director on two public companies and advisor to senior management of a number of successful Ontario corporations. His essays on city life have appeared in a number of Ontario newspapers and magazines.

Herman lives in Hamilton and sails on Hamilton Harbour

Yep -that'd be the guy. And you're right, he is a formidable character, especially given some of the flyweights at city hall.

Hard to imagine it will, isn't it? Some old saying about horses and barn doors keeps coming to mind...

Thanks guys for the info. I gather Herman and Bob are most likely not the best of friends? :wink:

City Council has already had one extension, Earl.

City Council will make a decision on Monday for the stadium's location and all the rest,
if not, the Pan Am bid committee just says 'Next' and another community steps forward.

They don't want to have any more egg on their face over this one. The Waterfront lands it is.