Clearing up the subsidy myth and other stadium facts

At least the Cats give the city national TV exposure to the city on a major sports network.

Nobody is vilifying the Cats Earl, they are just pointing out that there is an inconsistency in the party line being towed by some posters and the staff. The only vilifying I see here is some of the posters bashing the city for not cutting Bob a blank cheque and letting him do what he pleases with tax payers money. The Cats have been getting a sweethart of a deal at IWS, you'd have to be a complete homer not to acknowledge that. If it wasn't for the Cats the city would have absolutely no need to maintain a stadium of that size. Therefore logic dictates that the city is spending 1.3 million a year to keep the team in town. That might meet the definition of subsidy in the truest sense but a spade is a spade, As per the Cats spending 7million on improvements well since most of those improvements (other then the scoreboard) can be moved no matter where the team goes and are mainly focused on improving game day experience then those are improvements to their own business and not really a benefit to the city. Yes of course there are economic benefits of the team being here. Propobly not nearly as much as some people trumpet out. The majority of the teams expenses are salaries, most people that play and work for the Cats do not live or own property in Hamilton. Even our hometown boy Stala lives in Montreal in the off season. So that leaves the property on on Jarvis the few staff that work there that are from Hamilton and the minimum wage staff that work at the games (some of which are paid by the city if I recall). There are other intangibles that the team provides like television exposure and such. I'm not saying that the Cats do not provide a benefit for the city but I think it is more of a mutually beneficial relationship then one sided charity that some people try to make it out to be.

BigP, you're missing the point. You say The Cats have been getting a sweethart of a deal at IWS, you'd have to be a complete homer not to acknowledge that.

What the city needs to understand to get Bob really on board, and he has spent money sprucing up the city's stadium, is this, plain and simple. The city needs to develop a RoughRider Pride mentality, in otherwords instead of saying the Cats are getting a sweetheart deal, turn this around and say we, the city, love giving the Cats a sweetheart deal. Get it? The Cats in many ways are not a usual business, it is an entertainment product that sells Hamilton on national TV and can bring home a prized trophy to this city with more publicity, the Grey Cup.

The city needs to bend over backwards to keep Bob happy and give him and the team "special service and goodies". That's being a homer, that's what I am all the way. The more Bob wins, the more the TigerCats get to a Grey Cup, the more exposure to the city on national TV and press, the more people say "hey, Hamilton is a happening place." You see, the city needs to be supporting all the way to help the Cats win the Grey Cup, not just for the Cats but for the city here.

Pro sports transcends just about any business out there because it is a major marketing tool, IMHO, to be able to get skilled workers to come to this city because of the exposure.

Why do you think the city of San Diego loses some $12 to $17 mill a year on the stadium for the Chargers but don't want to lose the team? Figure it out.

I'm not saying you have to agree with me the TigerCats deserve all the tax and city breaks going, but I believe that. It's called RoughRider Pride, time the city "gets this" IMHO.

[quote="Earl"]

Pride, time the city "gets this" IMHO.

As a Ticat Fan but one that lives a long way from the city, having sat back and watched AND READ almost all posts on the stadium etc.

I'd say that Earl has a good point! And deerhunter, I know what you posted above is true as well.

I have heard that the City has arbitrarily wiped out ooddles and ooddles of tax arrears on not only the Rheem property itself but on other surrounding properties acquired for this stadium thing

I'm curious what the total is....??????

"Pro sports transcends just about any business out there because it is a major marketing tool, IMHO, to be able to get skilled workers to come to this city because of the exposure."

That is so silly I almost fell off my seat. Exposure does crap for bringing people to the city. Jobs bring people to a city not a CFL team. A vibrant, entertainment filled, downtown core brings people to a city not a CFL team playing in the suburbs. I have yet to hear anyone say "well I did have a great job offer in Oakville but I took a slighlty lesser paying job in Hamilton becasuse they have a CFL team.". Yes a CFL team gives a city a level of respectability (especially if that city doesnt have that many other teams) but not to the tune of 50 or 60 million. If the city pulled the plug on the stadium and spent the 60 mil on infrastructure improvements and tax incetives for attracting high-tech, health, or green industries the investment would pay off infinatly more then 6 Grey Cups. A Grey Cup pays off 80-100 mil once every 8 years. 2 or 3 firms that employ +50 employees do that in a year.

You're concentrating too much on the micro-aspect money factor here and analysis. I'm not saying write a blank cheque to the TigerCats, and not for a minute do I believe that Bob Young demands this. Look at Buffalo without the Bills, look at Hamilton with the TigerCats, what do you have? Ok, Buffalo has the Sabres but Hamilton?

I'm considering moving out of Hamilton should Hamilton lose the TigerCats, when I retire in 6 years or so. There is a cumulative effect, Hamilton loses the TigerCats, it's all part of the "Hamilton couldn't get an NHL team, it's a smelly steeltown city, loses the TigerCats and no Grey Cups..."

I think this is important. I also think it can make some people move here or not. I know in the medical business some people won't move here because they imagine the city "rinky dink" and lacking in amenities. And I know this first hand that recruiting high quality medical people is difficult for this city.

As I say, it's all cumulative in the long run. The city forgot about the Cats and concentrated on Copps, and no NHL team. Mistake! Now no Grey Cups. Another - MISTAKE!!!

Rider Pride, time the city of Hamilton understands this concept and breathes and lives it or else it's just another ho hum who cares city out there.

Bottom line as well Bob Young wants the city of Hamilton to succeed and be known, he is a believer in the city. But he'd sort of like to at least break even on the TigerCats, of course.

I thought this was interesting from a discussion on the Buffalo Bills. As we know, the Bills or any NFL team are not that important to the overall economic activity of a city or region, and less so a CFL team. But, and the entire article is more arts vs sports type of thing:

Here is what I have learned - the Bills are important to WNY but they are NOT an economic engine. There is a reason why there has been almost no private investment around Ralph Wilson Stadium since it opened in 1973 - 8 to 10 games a year is simply too little activity to generate any significant spinoff investment. The older I get, the more I realize that the most important thing about the games is the opportunity to spend the day with friends and family, plugging into the community spirit that is present. I suspect a lot of fans feel the same way.

[url=http://www.buffalorising.com/2009/03/a-must-read-for-wny-art-enthusiasts.html]http://www.buffalorising.com/2009/03/a- ... iasts.html[/url]

I'm with you on possibly leaving Hamilton should the Tiger-Cats leave. It's such an important part of the identity of the city. If they leave, the heart and tradition of the city leaves with them. I'm sure Hamilton would go on, but it would be an admission that we are just part of the GTA, that there isn't something a bit different about our civic culture. And I believe there is something different about our culture here.

I think there is a bit of different aspect to the "Hamilton culture" as well ILove. In certain circles. Problem is I'm not sure the people running this city and elected in this city see this. :?

I'm not a born and raised in Hamilton person so I hope others more competent on this aspect could chip in here...

Earl:
First of all I think we’re arguing over to separate issues here. As I’ve stated previously I have no problem with the Cats getting breaks and some form of subsidy from the City. I too believe that they are an integral part of the cities culture and need to be supported. What I have a problem with, is the Cats pretending to that they are not getting said subsidy and trying to negotiate from a position of strength and expecting to be treated as an equal partner. The deal they were originally offered was a bad one, I concur wholeheartedly, but expecting the City to cater completely to their needs is just silly. Hence mr.Mitchells statement ‘there could be a business case for west harbor, we just havent seen it yet’. What that seems to me is that they were not offered the same type of deal at the new location and were actually expected to pay for the maintance and therefore threatend to not move in.

I doubt there will be much negotiating with regards to a different location. There will not be any viable alternatives that both sides will agree on. The city wants this stadium to be more then just a place for Mr.Young. It has to do more then that for them to justify the expenditure. Even Bob has said its not really about the location but about an agreement that helps the Cats become self-sufficient.

Fair enough BigP.

I concur wholeheartedly, but expecting the City to cater completely to their needs is just silly.

Don’t like this sentence though. I still don’t think the TigerCats see that the city needs to “cater completely to their needs” as you say. I honestly think the TigerCats, Bob Young, wants to see the city benefit here. And how is that done? By making the TigerCats as a business as robust as it can be because at the end of the day, what is good for the TigerCats with the name “Hamilton” in front of them, is good for the city overall.

No blank cheques, agree, but true mutual partners on this journey. Just keep slapping each other on the behind all the way I say.

What's good for GM is good for the country they used to say.

Yup, like the free agent making the bigger money, if he helps you win a championship, well guess what, it means that the other players on the team share in the championship winnings and may get a better deal when their time is up to negotiate a new contract, it ends up a win-win.

You always want to see your partners do well, I say. Team concept. In this case Team City and Team TigerCats, work together as a TEAM.

Yes, and after decades of tax breaks, occasional bail outs safety recalls and sub standard product GM has moved huge chunks of its operations overseas while laying off North American workers. Great analogy :roll: :lol:

No blank cheques, agree, but true mutual partners on this journey. Just keep slapping each other on the behind all the way I say.

And that my friend, is what is going to be thrown around the table when the two sides meet, not the location. Parking revenues, revenue sharing from increased property value etc. Details on the actually stadium: (almost everyone has forgotten about it it seems like) sight-lines, concessions, on-site facilities expandability. The city can offer other incentives as well, maybe have Tourism Hamilton co-sponsor the Grey Cup bid etc. The rest of the money needed for the stadium will be found, I'm sure. If the two sides come to terms and ask the Feds and Province for a couple of mil each I doubt either government will want be knows as the ones that fudged it up. I can see the city pitching in a few as well and Bob a couple if he thinks the deal will help him turn things around.

Yeah, it's what they used to say. Not anymore, but the reasons why actually make the analogy all the better!

‘Yeah, it’s what they used to say. Not anymore, but the reasons why actually make the analogy all the better!’

Yes and all those tax breaks and bail outs is one of the reasons why 60 mil Americans still don’t have any health care coverage and 30 mil live in what western standards classify as ‘absolute poverty’. So if the analogy would be true it would be more like: “whats good for GM, is good for GMs directors, lawyers, lobbyists and maybe a little bit left over for the employees”… but now we’re really getting off topic.

The fact that you draw this sort of picture explains a lot about your other ticat stadium-related position in this thread. You'd fit in great at city hall I think. :lol:

And if your opinions differ, run for public office. See how many votes you get.

:thup: Thumbs way up on this post.