City of Hamilton To Consider Alternate Stadium Sites

This article by John Kernaghan on the Hamilton Spectator this afternoon reports that the City of Hamilton will consider alternate stadium sites during their mediation sessions with the Ticats on the understanding that the West Harbour site is the starting point. Kernaghan obtained this information from an interview he had with Mayor Eisenberger after the public information session at the Art Gallery of Hamilton this morning.

http://thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/770160

Really, didn't notice this article. :wink:

The question: Will any stadium site suffice?

May 15, 2010 Emma Reilly

The Hamilton Spectator

Is the debate surrounding the Pan Am stadium about location, or is it about money?

The city says it won't be able to provide the Cats
with enough revenue to cover those losses,

NO MATTER WHERE THE STADIUM IS LOCATED.


How is that for an optimistic statement from the City?

I hope City Manager Chris Murray sees things
differently than most people at City Hall.

the city won't be able to provide the Ticats with the revenue they need,

even if the stadium sat beside a highway
with ample room for parking.


He says there would still be $5.5 million in losses
for the Tiger Cats even with naming rights.
"If you look at the consumption patterns of a Ticats fan once they're at the stadium,

I don't think it matters whether that stadium is beside
a 400-series highway or beside a lake or a harbour.

I think they're going to consume once they're there
-- that doesn't change from one site to another," Murray said.


Apparently the City Manager assumes that our
present attendance level will always remain

no matter where the stadium is located.

The Tiger Cats have invested millions on advertising
and apparently lots of freebies in the beginning

to get the attendance to where it is today.

Keeping attendance up in southern Ontario
for CFL football will always be a battle

IMO, there will be a significant drop off
in attendance after the "newness"

of the stadium wears off,

and casual fans are turned off by

the aggravation they have to go through
to get to a stadium at the Rheem site.

Especially in season's when the Ticats aren't
contenders and they have no play off games.

Does leaving a replacement stadium
for Ivor Wynne Stadium as a legacy

for the Tiger Cats to play in
carry any weight at City Hall

or are we holding the Pan Am Games here
only for the warm and fuzzy feelings that

they may be achieved by it?

This ain't the Olympics, folks.

Will you be attending any events, Mr Murray?

P.S.

Ms Reilly gives more numbers for us to crunch
than have ever been made public before.

Numbers are what the facilitator
will be using
to make his decision

NOT any high sounding intangible
benefits for the image of the City.

The numbers she quotes are very important

and so are the quote she got regarding
Tiger Cat President Scott Mitchell's

interpretation of the Deloitte Report.

I think that the Pan-Am Games are going to need to rely on TigerCats fans, particularly season ticket holders who will get a great package deal on the PanAm Games events here in Hamilton as part of the season tickets, to have some decent attendance at the events here.

I can tell you if the facilitator doesn't get a deal done and the stadium goes ahead here with no TigerCat involvement, I won't set foot in any facility here for any event for the PanAm Games here. Does the city or HOSTCO care? I don't know.

Ron:

Hmmm. This is not good....especially coming from the city manager.
No amount of increased attendance in a 27 thousand seat stadium will make up the 5 plus million that's needed.
I was thinking maybe the only thing left is for the city and/or the mediator to make a case to the Province about the need for the Tiger-Cats to stay in Hamilton and for extra money to cover the 50 million for an expanded stadium.
But if they get a free stadium and can't still afford to stay there.....things look bad for the future of the Tiger-Cats in Hamilton.

wow so how long b4 bob young decides to move the team to missisauga or london? cuz if u cant make money even in a new stadium... THE CATS ARE DOOMED.

I have a dumb question,Cant we leave it as a 15,000 seat stadium and make the demand for tickets go up? I think I remember reading something that said thats what they did in Montreal and they added seats eventually.
I think with a higher demand on seats you would be able to charge more money per ticket.
The money that the Cats are going to put in is to expand the stadium after the games is it not? So could Bob just keep his money and play in a 15,000 seat stadium?
I admit I am not really up to date on the stadium thread,mainly because I havent had the time to read through all the pages so I apologize if this has already been covered.

Then the ticket prices will go up considerably. If you read in the article, the Ticats are aiming for $10m ticket revenue. Given 10 games per season (including one pre-season game), you'd be looking at $67 average price. Currently the highest priced seats at IWS are $90 if purchased individually, or $70 in a season ticket package.

http://ticats.ca/page/tickets_2010seasonseats

Here's the link to the Spectator story: http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/769918

Ron, the key factor for me is no matter where the stadium is located, if the Ticats aren't contenders in a given season, it won't matter, because it will be the same as the past number of years when the team didn't play well - people simply won't show up. You could put the stadium on a gold lined street, but if the team sucks, why will anyone feel compelled to spend their hard earned money to attend? That's the power the consumer wields over businesses.

Scott Mitchell is quoted: "Ninety per cent of our revenues in one way, shape, or form, are derived from the retail experience, whether it be beverage, souvenirs, corporate partnerships, tickets - it's all a retail experience. And at the end of the day, what's the most essential thing to retail experience? Location."

I can't entirely agree with that, because while the Cats are selling a product - the team - it's an exclusive form entertainment, not a widget that can be found at numerous retail locations. But a football team tends to be an inconsistent product and football 'consumers' are finicky, especially in Hamilton. Field a bad team and fewer will attend. Field a good team and more will. We see that now at IWS, which is in a less than ideal location with respect to access and parking conveniences that seem to be such key factors for the new stadium location.

He also states: "You have to provide a very easy, convenient, positive experience. The moment you put barriers to entry of that experience -- location, parking, transportation, access -- that obviously has an incredible impact on your ability to sell tickets. Why would people come down to a stadium that they can't get to and they can't park at, when they can stay at home and watch it on their 60-inch TV?"

Again, if the team performs, people will want to watch the game in person. The issue of people watching the game on TV instead of in person is the double edged consequence of televising games in the first place and not having local blackouts. The broadcaster needs viewers in order to attract advertisers in order to pay the broadcast rights to the league, who in turn pays a share to the Ticats. So the Ticats do benefit from TV viewers, to a tune of around a $2m payment from the league. Maybe the teams need to put more pressure on the league to get the broadcaster to agree to more blackout dates in order to drive more locals to the games (probably only a problem for Toronto and Hamilton since attendance seems healthier elsewhere).

Ultimately I feel the solution in the best interest for the City is not in the best interest of the team, and vice versa. The City is looking for an urban renewal angle to the stadium, which means it will be centrally located for best effect. But where is there enough land in the city centre for a stadium, a lot of parking, and all the associated retail development that apparently will be necessary to attract investors in order to build a 25,000+ seat stadium? I don't think it exists.

BTW, http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/770160

Apparently the mayor is now willing to consider other sites...

Wow ! The Spec and city hall are some tight LOL !

They keep trying to trivialize the Ticats position by trying to make this about one or two specific issues. Its about partnership vs tennant/landlord relationship. It is about the ability to draw from the entire region vs drawing from Hamilton only. It does not take an MBA to come to the conclusion that someone driving from Welland or Toronto to see the game is a lot more likely to do so if they can drive an off ramp and walk in as opposed to going all the way downtown through congested city streets, look for parking for 10 minutes or more and than hit themselves a 20 minute walk.

Who is going to manage the stadium ? HECFI or the Ticats ? or is it going to be shared ?
How many dates are included in the lease ?
Who will pay the utilities, how much are the taxes, rent ?

The city wants a tennant well maybe... and the Ticats want to be able to run their business and that means managing the venue. Obviously putting it downtown with lousy parking, poor transit in a disgusting part of town where there is no commitment to redevelop and limitation to noise levels due to residential is SUICIDE for a business.

Considering the mayor is on the board of directors of H.E.C.F.I there is a HUGE conflict of interest here IMO. If the mayor continues down the current path, he will be able to add another empty building to his cluster. Hopefully Cohon and Brailey will make it clear to the mayor that if they have to pull the team out of Hamilton. The city will NEVER again see the colour of a CFL team. So no hockey, no football and likely no soccer since the USL will be dead once Montreal joins the MLS in 2012 and the same bunch that own the Leafs are not going to allow the MLS to put a soccer team in Hamilton. So Fred will be perfect !

Is there a lot of grass hockey fans in Hamilton ?

This more hopeful news came online on Saturday afternoon

Mayor willing to consider stadium sites other than west harbour

May 15, 2010 John Kernaghan The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/770160

The city has agreed to discuss alternate sites
to the west harbour for the 2015 Pan Am stadium,

Eisenberger said he called for [this] engagement session

in order to bring the Pan Am discussion

back to the reasons Premier Dalton McGuinty led the charge
to win the Games and Hamilton agreed to be a senior partner.

[Is he finally become aware that leaving a replacement stadium

as legacy spots facility for the City and for the Tiger Cats]

The session centred on the health and wealth benefits

from a legacy of sports and recreation facilities

to serve the community,

thousands of construction, service and supply jobs
and a buffing of Hamilton’s image internationally.

P.S.

My mistake. the link to this article
wasn't include when I started this thread.

The question: Will any stadium site suffice?

May 15, 2010 Emma Reilly

The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/769918

This more hopeful news came online on Saturday afternoon

Mayor willing to consider stadium sites other than west harbour

May 15, 2010 John Kernaghan The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/770160

The city has agreed to discuss alternate sites
to the west harbour for the 2015 Pan Am stadium,

Eisenberger said he called for [this] engagement session

in order to bring the Pan Am discussion

back to the reasons Premier Dalton McGuinty led the charge
to win the Games and Hamilton agreed to be a senior partner.

[Is he finally become aware that leaving a replacement stadium

as legacy spots facility for the City and for the Tiger Cats]

The session centred on the health and wealth benefits

from a legacy of sports and recreation facilities

to serve the community,

thousands of construction, service and supply jobs
and a buffing of Hamilton’s image internationally.

The question: Will any stadium site suffice?

My mistake.

The link to this article wasn't included
when I started this thread last night.

May 15, 2010 Emma Reilly

The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/769918

As I said before...

Ms Reilly gives more numbers for us to crunch
than have ever been made public before.

Numbers are what the facilitator
will be using to make his decision

NOT any high sounding intangible
benefits for the image of the City.

The numbers she quotes are very important

and so are the quote she got regarding
Tiger Cat President Scott Mitchell's

interpretation of the Deloitte Report.

rscheffler already gave us the link.

The last line in the Spec article by Emma O'Reilly is :
"Which begs the question -- at this point in the process, is there a site in Hamilton that will allow you to break even?"

Question for Emma:
I would think for the readers....that begs another question..."are the Tiger-Cats wasting their time trying to negotiate a deal with the City?"
This was not an opinion piece where it's OK to raise questions. It is an incomplete news story.
You had access to Scott Mitchell and Chris Murray. Why did you not ask Scott Mitchell " given what Chris Murray says....are mediated negotiations a waste of time?" Can the Tiger-Cats afford to stay in Hamilton?????
Or have concluded your piece with "end of part one."

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/770160

May 16, 2010 John Kernaghan The Hamilton Spectator The city has agreed to discuss alternate sites to the west harbour for the 2015 Pan Am stadium, putting it and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats closer to naming a facilitator to hammer out a solution for the $100- to $150-million facility.

Both sides said Saturday that other locations could be assessed.

“The west harbour site should be the starting point,? said Mayor Fred Eisenberger, but he added he does not disagree with looking at other sites if they are viable.

He made his comments after a community engagement session Saturday morning at the Art Gallery of Hamilton which looked at opportunities flowing from the Games.

Ticat president Scott Mitchell stressed during the meeting that “any and all? sites should be open for examination.

The city left open the option of a plan B site in February when council approved the west harbour location.

Both men said 90 per cent of discussions between the city and the football club have been productive

The city is carrying on with planning around the Bay and Barton Streets site, including land purchases and soil testing.

Eisenberger said he called for the engagement session in order to bring the Pan Am discussion back to the reasons Premier Dalton McGuinty led the charge to win the Games and Hamilton agreed to be a senior partner.

The session centred on the health and wealth benefits from a legacy of sports and recreation facilities to serve the community, thousands of construction, service and supply jobs and a buffing of Hamilton’s image internationally.

Thanks for drawing my attention to rsheffler. Cap'n.

The City, understandably, wanted to set the moon as their target.

Maybe now both parties can compromise and set as their target
one of the stars in the galaxy that can work for both of them.

A compromise location is better than not getting a stadium at all.

Sure, attendance fluctuates depending on a team's success on the field

but attendance would drop off much more at those times

if the a stadium is located at a far less than ideal spot

with inadequate on site parking and inconvenient
road access and transportation to get to there.

The only reason to have the games is Buildings that remain after it is over.
I will not go to 1 Event at the games cause I hate track and Field.
I Rather say home and Watch it on TV if I watch it all :thdn: .

If the Stadium is not right place after the games are Done …
The Ticats will be done (folded or Moved)and I will No reason ever to go Hamilton what so ever

I am Ti cat Fan not a Hamilton Fan let me make that clear…
If The Team where to move to Timbuctoo I still be a Ticat Fan

I am hoping the Team finds a way to Stay in the GHA
I don’t care if it Hamilton at This point
I’d be fine with Hamilton Burlington Oakville or Grimsby

Ron:

There is one more thing that needs to be taken into consideration here too.
The City needs a new stadium no matter what. The figures in the city report make it clear the 60 million of the city's share of 15 thousand seat Pan-Am stadium is cheaper than paying to keep IWS going.
I still get the impression the City believes it can drum up enough business and sponsors to keep a 15 thousand seater going at West Harbour without the Tiger-Cats. If not the city will lose tons of revenue from the velodrome (post-games) and other facilities.
I would hate to see that but if we are to believe Scott Mitchell and Chris Murray, the numbers are just not there now to make a 27 thousand-seater work.
If the city can show it has done everything possible other than sell the farm, to help the Tiger-Cats.....what other option is there?

:D Ron and Mr Cats :D :lol: have a Real love Hate Relationship

You guys really make my Day :thup: