Interesting how someone says anything that is not 100% politically correct and how quick the world is to condemn him.
No interest in whether you think what he said is right or wrong.
My contention is that he made a choice to not support Gay Pride and is instantly labeled "hatred" "homophobic" etc.
Which is nonsense, nothing he said or wrote was hateful. Just his personal opinion on the matter.
Sure it was homophobic! It doesn't have to be said with malice to be homophobic.
Just as it would be racist had he tweeted 'White man ain't supposed to be with a black woman'
I've had some great discussions with even gay friends where we've disagreed on whether or not something was homophobic. This tweet was about as clear cut as it gets IMO.
As for him being released not my first choice. My preference is always give the player a chance to meet with some gay families or PFLAG or a Brian Burke type person to give him some exposure to it and have it explained to him the hurtfulness of those comments and from there make decisions as warranted. .
Perhaps just as when we were talking about the definition of the word 'care' on the Raptors thread - we have a different understanding of the various uses, meanings and applications of the word homophobic.
FYB - just curious (and if you don't feel comfortable answering that's cool - this is not me trying to say 'Gotcha!') - had he tweeted 'white man ain't supposed to be with a black woman' - I assume most would agree that would be a racist comment? Would you and if yes then why do you not think what he did say was homophobic?
I kind of wish people who make these statements could do so, get rightly told they're being bigoted and come around without the threat or actual loss of their job. But he clearly wasn't going to issue any sort of apology or consider alternative viewpoints until he saw his income evaporate, so...
I think otherwise good people can have a wide range of opinions on a bunch of different topics (and I'm sure not everyone in the locker room fully agrees on everything) and still coexist.
So where is the line then drawn? If someone is anti religious and loses their mind over people taking a moment to pray (as was the case with Tebow) are they not allowed to express that opinion? What about the "kneelers"? Should they be fired too?
Is it "tolerance" to fire someone for not agreeing with you?
I agree to disagree with some of my best friends all the time. I also know there are certain beliefs I hold that were I to say them in a public form I could very well lose my job – so I keep those thoughts to myself or to private conversations.
I think opinions have differed on kneeling with recent momentum towards it being a reasonable action to take to express support for minorities. I think more would have been fine with it much earlier had it not so successfully been misrepresented by people like Trump and FoxNews as an action against the US military and flag – something it was never about. It was even a decorated US Vet who encouraged Kaepernick to kneel rather than sit so as his aim could not be misinterpreted – but clearly that did not work. Never underestimate Trump and FoxNews.
The NFL owners – for the most part - spineless who will twist to which ever way they think the dollars are blowing. The only person fired over that entire debacle was basically Kaepernick – and no – that should not have happened.
If a guy on my team – who let’s say knew I was gay said to me privately what he tweeted – with supposedly no malice intended I would politely tell him that he’s entitled to that opinion but that I strongly disagreed with him and how explain how damaging comments like those can be even when just said in small private conversations. I’d definitely try to have some of the – ‘what if your son ten years from now tells you he’s gay’ or what if he is gay and never tells you and distances himself from you when older because of those types of comments?’
Would that impact how he felt? I’d also strongly encourage him to reach out to a local gay youth support group to meet some of the great gay or lesbian kids and listen to their stories of attempting suicide because their Mom or Dad had said a similar thing to them. Many who I’ve mentored and counselled over the years.
I’d also warn him there would be massive negative impact on him if he were to repeat it publicly because that attitude is no longer tolerated in today’s society.
Ultimately I’m at the mercy of my employer and the marketplace they operate in – and if I publicly say something that society considers wrong in a racist/misogynist/homophobic way = there will be consequences.
And that is what unfortunately has happened to this player.
I fully agree. Sounds to me like you arent crazy about the firing. I do, however, wonder if the thought police are a bit over the top and I am not sure if "society" or employers are necessarily good arbiters of what's truth and what's not.
For example What if your employer tells you "Jesus is the only way to heaven. You must believe that or you will be fired"?
I would think that's a bit over the top much the same as the response of the Eskimos. Just the same as Kaepernick now being out of the league for kneeling.
There needs to be some balance to all this. Live and let live on all sides
ok, first let me be sure. All I am aware of is that he said "man should not lie with man and woman should not lie with woman.
I did not see him indicate any negative attitude or opinion against gay peoples.
As I indicated in our discussion many years ago, what he said was biblical, regardless of if that is where he got it from.
Because it is biblical, I believe it. Yet, again as previously discussed, I am not homophobic. I do not fear the subject or the people. I have no ill feeling to gay peoples. I do not want them hurt. I do not want them treated like lessor humans. I have had gay friends whose company I enjoyed and associated with others. I do not think I am any better. I would jump into defend them against antagonists as I would anyone else, be it racism, weight, apearance, etc. For this reason I also think that those of us who do not believe that we are meant to engage in homosexual activity, should be allowed to express it without being insulted and treated with intolorance in return.
If I see "Christians" giving homosexuals a bad time for being who they are, I would get into their faces about it because we all sin and have no business judging others peoples sins, or mistreating them in any way for their sins
If I say I dont believe people should smoke, am I smokaphobic?
If I say I dont think people should unnecessarily risk their lives doing such things as climbing buildings and cliffs without rope, am I spidermanaphobic.?
If I say I dont think people should have children after 50, am I some other kind of phobic?
ftr, It is both racist and ignorant to have negative opinion on any kind of mixed relationship, IMO
Not sure the actual tweets of Jones are on the record within this thread - so just so everyone knows what we are talking about.....
The original tweet said... "Ima keep it this real.... Man ain't supposed to be with a man. A women is not suppose to be with another women.
THAT'S ME THO! Live life with safety."
He was immediately challenged on Twitter and in numerous (over 50) since deleted tweets he replied to those criticisms or demands for an apology with tweets like these.
" STAND ON WHAT I SAY. Regret nothing. Apologize to who??? "
" I will never apologize."
Then on Sunday referring apparently to comments made by Janis Irwin an Alberta NDP MLA - who is Lesbian - who had said - "I spoke with media today about pro Edmonton football player Christion Jones’ homophobic tweets. I am hopeful Mr. Jones will apologize and that he’s willing to learn and grow. I’m here to help him along that journey if he wishes."
Jones tweeted... " From Janis Irwin. “This is an opportunity for growth.” She is absolutely right. My words were deeply hurtful, painful and served zero purpose. I added to the struggle of a community, to live a life free of oppression of any kind. I sincerely apologize. I was wrong. ! "
That was the series of events just so everybody has those details as they read this discussion.
Not only did he and the Jays direct his lost pay (due to suspension) go to PFLAG and You Can Play - for months he worked with those organizations and various others to learn. Key excerpts from that article.
“I look back a year from it and am thankful that it happened, because I hope the uncomfortable conversations that I can now have – which can be uncomfortable, can be sensitive, and for a long time there wasn’t really a reason to have these conversations – people can understand the impact it had.”
Most poignant was a private meeting with roughly 20 LGBT people and their parents in Toronto last July, during which Pillar heard first-hand the challenges the young adults in the room faced in both accepting themselves and gaining the acceptance of others.
“Hearing the struggles that they go through living in their own skin every day was really sad, it made me even more remorseful for what I did, knowing how much the word is still casually used and how deeply it offends them,” said Pillar.
“You would think living in 2018, during a pretty progressive time in the world, that a lot of these struggles that these individuals go through would be something that would be a thing of the past. I can only imagine what it’s like for them to try to live what is considered to be a normal life after hearing what they have to go through.
“Just the fear of how they’re going to be accepted by their own family, their own friends. Then you throw in society on top of that, and what they continue to go through was eye-opening.”
My preference for any situation like this is an outcome like Pillars.
As an athlete or in any profession, why even go there beyond this matter? Social media also have expanded, legally or not, the perception or application of your place of work.
But on this one and beyond the underlying hate beyond the remarks, oh my friends is there a taboo discussion as concerns matters in and beyond the Democratic Party.
Expect these sorts of developments to recur.
I agree with all but one guy here (I blocked him long ago for wanting to campaign for a US presidential candidate and then some), for sake of improved understanding and public consciousness, it's best not to cut guys making all but the most egregiously hateful comments such that the issue is buried yet only recurs.