Did you catch the live at 5:30 show with Hebscher and Skelley tonight. They round up this so-called expert on stadium scams by franchise owners and proceed to tell us how the Cats are scamming the city into to getting what they want. Well, this guy Neil DeMause is a editor and writer for left wing paper.."The Village Voice" in Manhattan, New York. The guy is a total elitist and doesn't embrace big business at all. Another "everything into the city core" lefty. I don't get how he can compare a cfl franchise which is losing money big-time, to nfl teams that are money makers. Obviously you can find someone, somewhere that will tell you exactly what you want to hear. How stupid does CH think we are. They think they can get a lefty dork on, and he's all of a sudden a expert on the Cats and stadium debacle. When they get these lefty academics on, as so-called experts, their answers are so predictable..they're all city core and anti business, that's a given. How about a counter point of view CH, instead of carry the water for the WH site. :cowboy:
Well, you have to admit, as far as city cores go, Manhattan is pretty much number 1 in the world. And all the suburbs are better for it too. As far as the core being “Anti Business”, I pretty much though the symbol of capitalism (used to be) the World Trade Center. That was in Manhatten I believe, as well as the New York Stock Exchange and numerous hq’s of multinational banks.
And while I agree CFL and NFL are incompariable, did you ever question what criteria Bobs experts did to analyze the proposed locations in Hamilton? Hopefully they did not model them or make the same assumptions or used NFL stadiums to compair. They are incompariable remember?
Hey Godsend...Manhattan is number 1 in the world..and the suburbs are better for it. That wasn't the point I was making but as far as Manhattan is concernerd, it maybe number 1 in your opinion but not mine. It is a lefty borough of NY.
The suburbs and the rest of NY state are basically bankrupt because of lefty democratic run governments which cater to the cities core and socialist programs. My point is that you can dig up a so-called expert from anywhere to support your agenda. Why wouldn't CH then dig up one of the consultants that Bob hired and let him debate DeMause..why give only one side...get my drift. :cowboy:
And how many professional football stadiums are located in Manhattan again?
And just because NYC had the “symbol of capitalism” doesn’t mean they don’t have lefties. The Village Voice is a lefty paper, just like NOW Magazine is in Toronto. Isn’t Toronto the centre of Canadian capitalism?
The problem with these so-called experts (lefty academics) is that they've never run a business themselves. They look at business as evil. If you invest in a business, you're not suppose to make money in their minds. Now, I recall when Bob Young bought and saved the franchise he was asked if he would be selling it in a couple years as it was a money losing venture. Bob stated that he wanted to build the franchise so it would be self sustainable on it's own so it would never fail again. This was how he answered the question. He did not buy the franchise to make money on it, he wanted it to live on forever even after he sold it. This is why these CH so-called experts don't get the Cat's position...Bob does not want this franchise to fail..his hired consultants reported back to him that a stadium in the WH site would do just that...fail. :cowboy:
And while I agree CFL and NFL are incompariable, did you ever question what criteria Bobs experts did to analyze the proposed locations in Hamilton? Hopefully they did not model them or make the same assumptions or used NFL stadiums to compair.The Ti-Cats said their stadium experts compared similar size stadiums across the U.S., including many new MLS stadiums, which mostly had been built in the suburbs, not downtown. 70,000-seat NFL stadiums were not compared to the Pan-Am stadium.
The number is 12 of the 17 MLS soccer stadiums built in recent years have been built outside of the downtowns of their cities.
But the other point is that “downtown” is not bad or does not work.
It is that all downtown stadiums also feature great access, ie they have both great public transit -and- great private vehicle access. From BMO field in Toronto to Camden Yards in Baltimore, all the successful downtown stadiums are built on major highways.
The West Harbour just does not have the access for a successful stadium.
Wow, I went for a 20min nap after dinner and the whole world turned upside down.
So let me get this straight. Now advocates of responsible government spending are called lefties? Far out. Can’t wait to watch that, I hope they have it on their website.
MLS? So that's the model for CFL stadia in Canada?
Is it too difficult to find CFL comparisons?
Also, how many of the 12 or 17 MLS stdaiums mentioned are in the U.S. and how many are in Canada? How differing or similar are the sport cultures? Is MLS really comparable to CFL?
Any idea what kind of experts, if any, were used for the Ottawa and Winnipeg stadiums?
Thank you Red!
That episode of 5:30 show "Field of Schemes' was the MOST capitalist reading of the stadium situation I have heard! He was going on about making sure taxpayer money isn't being spent unwisely and demonstrated repeatedly how smart businessmen look for resources to minimize their risks. Getting government to pay for a private business is a resource every business person tries to leverage. Look at the current economic crisis...banks gambled with our money, lost big and then get bailed out by government. Government is too broke to maintain social programs so those same banks loan the government back our own money with huge interest which gave them massive profits in the last quarter!
The author was talking about fiscal responsibility and showed over and over again the same situation has played out 100's of times in the states with owners forcing scared politicians to squander resources. He wanted hard facts from the ticats about how much they lose a year and brought up the Paul Beaston quote when he was with the Jays "Through accepted accounting practises, I can make a $4 million profit look like a $2 million loss.'
I'm not a fan of the mayor but WH is all of 4km away from Ivor Wynne (a 25 min walk) and 'you can't be a suburb around nothing'. Look at how great Montreal's downtown stadium has revived not only the Al's (who charge 2x as much as we do) but football in Quebec. Before Skydome revitalized dowtown Toronto in '89..there was nothing in the entertainment district. It was all warehouses and people would drive to Buffalo(!) to have a good time.
I do believe a lot of this is sabre rattling from both sides so a better 3rd option (Longwood, Confed park) is on the table and Bob gets a more stable deal. Ideally, we get a stadium somewhere downtown, Bob kicks in for a WH amphitheatre, Bob's stadium gets better access to the highway and higher naming rights.
There's is nothing more capitalist than saying 'Build your own stadium with your own money' and leave the taxpayers out of it.
No, but I caught them the previous night where Mark keep coming back to “why should the Ticats have a say, they will only use the stadium 10 days a year.”
Sadly our message is not getting out. The whole point to a new stadium whether in Hamilton or Milton, is to have a stadium that can attract dozens of new events.
We were promising to bring a NASL soccer team to Hamilton (http://www.nasl.com) that would play another 20+ dates in the stadium, and that is just the beginning of the numbers and types of new events a new stadium -not- in a residential neighbourhood could host.
I agree fully with your take on this and how it would play out at WH, my first hope would be a west end lower city on the 403 site as that would provide both access and downtown benifit, there has to be some give and take by city hall, however well we all know how thats gone. You have made your business side clear and I would imagine that the presented EM plan would be a model for most any workable site.
I personally can not understand why so many fail to get the point that this is an opportunity for so much more then a hope that down town renewal may occur. Marks comments shocked me as to his lack of knowledge regarding the topic. There is other agendas at work here or people just dont get it. Its business !!!
That’s why the loss of the East Mountain site is so devastating to my family. We are huge Ti-cat and soccer fans and would have invested in at least 6 season tickets for both teams.
McMahon stadium here in Calgary isn't downtown and it works. excellent transit system though. how much parking do you REALLY need? you fans in hamilton can answer this though. is the location of IWS that bad? put up a temp stadium for 2-3 years while a new one is built and then move back. different sport but the flames are looking at the same situation. saddledome is in a perfect location and to put up a new arena somewhere else, way the hell and gone for some fans, means probably an hours commute depending on where you live. transit is the answer. back to football, McMahon is at the corner of the trans canada and crowchild trail. on the trans canada unless you know the stadium is there, there's a good chance you won't even see it. crowchild is a differnt matter. major north south artery. was in hamilton in 96 for the grey cup. stayed in oakville though-my hometown. drove to some factory and was shuttled to ivor wynne. great way to do it then why not now (shuttling that is)?
Hebscher is ok of a guy but he's nothing more than a conduit of an information pipeline from someone above him who tells him what to say. Not too many originals thoughts in Mark's head I'm afraid from what I've seen over the years.
Caretaker, people know the score and understand where you are coming from but there is a bigtime agenda going on in this city that will undermine anything unless it has to do with trying to do anything possible for the mistake that is downtown Hamilton that have been allowed to happen over the years by this city. They are desperate for a quick fix solution rather than a long term plan that actually makes long term sense, sadly. And they have a lot of people buying into this "quick high fix."
I don’t think Hebscher and Skelly are a good barometer of the success of the message, at least not that part of the message. They are deliberately sensationalistic and to accomplish that, they distort reality. Then they tee off on the sensationalistic part and anyone who tries to correct the distortion is on their heels.
Other parts of the message, however, I agree, are genuinely not reaching the populace who are concerned about making sure the public sector investment in your business is sound and delivers broad public benefits, not just for the team.
Maybe the City staff is getting the details it needs to make informed decisions about where to place their support in all of this, but the populace isn’t. To many on this board “trust our experts” is accepted as gospel, but others in the city find it patronizing (likewise for the ‘we will lose $7M in the first year at WH’ - some of the assumptions seemed questionable and it begs the question – ‘how do other teams do it?’). Just saying what I hear.
Well, the information of other teams is at anyones fingertips if they want it. Most other teams don't live within an hour of an NFL city than can offer the cheapest or close to the cheapest tickets in the NFL with a tailgate experience with a driveway to driveway experience that works big time.
I hear you. But you have to admit as far as Downtowns go (and I know , downtown is not for everyone), Manhattan is the champ.
But you are right, they should present the other side of the story.
Sorry to break it to you but The Village Voice was owned by Robert Murdoch, the owner of one of the most extreme right wing media outlets on the planet! And most of the articles I’ve read from the The Village Voice were very racist, something you’d expect from a Robert Murdoch venture.