Cats' partners not sold on stadium site

I'm not sure that the Rheem is the best locale for a stadium either but I think the city is too far into this to change their mind. The more sites you have the more studies you need and the more time it takes and time is the one thing the city does not have. The city has to get this thing resolved this year.
A stadium up by the airport is too far out and would really inhibit public transportation or walking to the games. The Confederation Park site would also have similar problems.
In that respect the harbour is the better choice but only by default.

Exhibition Stadium was fondly referred to as the "Mistake by the Lake", the harbour site may be "Dismay by the Bay" but I think that's what and where it will be.

Here are the links to two items about the Pan Am stadium in today's Hamilton Spectator:

An article by John Kernaghan titled "Hamilton council accused of secret Pan Am stadium talks" about a complaint made to the Ontario ombudsman's office that city council held an in-camera meeting about land acquisition and remediation after the Committee of the Whole meeting on Feb 18/10;

http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/727955

And an editorial by Howard Elliott titled "All aboard for west harbour";

http://thespec.com/Opinions/article/727962

Thanks for the links TC. This line in the editorial doesn't make sense to me:

The Tiger-Cats are obviously critical partners on the stadium specifically, and they also should be partners in the city-building vision embodied in the current plan.

Why should the Tiger-Cats by default be partners in the city-building vision embodied in the current plan if they have determined with the information given that the current plan is not suitable for the team's long term viability interests? The Tiger-Cats don't exist to "build the city", they exist to play football and try and win the Grey Cup and as a result, entertain people who like to watch and follow the team. They are doing the city a favour by playing in a city, this city, and drawing people to the city and from the city to get out and spend money not only at the game but when they are out at other things like maybe a restaurant, pub etc. and basically bringing people into the city that otherwise may never come to the city and who knows, maybe some will buy a house here etc. The city is providing a stadium, their stadium, and if all the profits go to the city, the Tiger-Cats don't have to put one penny into the stadium as far as I'm concerned. Heck, they are going to be paying to play at the city owned stadium, aren't they?

Finalizing the location is not due until the end of this year,
I believe, and you also mention that in your post below.

There is time for a Plan B; the east harbourfront Plan 1B,

and the city could change their minds if the costs of remediation
are extemely over-the-top or if the support from the private sector

is inadequate to get the stadium up to a CFL compatible size.

[i]The more sites you have the more studies you need and the more time it takes and time is the one thing the city does not have.[/i]
[i]Nor do they have a BIG WHACK OF DOLLARS [/i] for more studies.
The city has to get this thing resolved this year.
and yet some people think Mayor Fred is wrong-headed and stubborn because the city honed in on only 2 or 3 sites after looking into more.
A stadium up by the airport is too far out and would really inhibit public transportation or walking to the games.

The Confederation Park site would also have similar problems.

In that respect the harbour is the better choice but only by default.

Exhibition Stadium was fondly referred to as the "Mistake by the Lake",

the harbour site may be "Dismay by the Bay" but
I think that's what and where it will be.

Why should the Tiger Cats work with the City on this, Earl?

Lots of city dollars are going in to providing a stadium for the Pan Am Games
and the city has the provincial government and federal governments on board

to do the same which save the Tiger Cats from building their own stadium.

P.S.

It's unlikely the city will make a net profit from the sports complex stadium

but nearby waterfront, James St. North and some downtown businesses
will see some increase in revenues spilling over after events at the stadium.

In the editorial by Howard Elliott titled "All aboard for west harbour";

http://thespec.com/Opinions/article/727962 which TCTD pointed out earlier.

Since Howard says there doesn't need to be a neatly bundled consensus overnight

why is he trying to stir up a sense of urgency
for the Tiger Cats to endorse this stadium site.

The Deloitte report is still 'fresh off the press'
and they're JUST starting to do their due dilegence.

Maybe this isn't what Howard Elliot wanted to say because he included this disclaimer

"Editorials are written by members of the editorial board. They represent
the position of the newspaper, not necessarily the individual author."

and he knows that

From a strict and narrow football-as-a-business perspective,
it is possible that the west harbour site might be less appealing

than a location with better highway access and on-site parking.

I think the Cats and their corporate friends are taking a cue from Obie's playbook. A little bit of misdirection can be useful in achieving the final goal. When O'Billovich, the magician, makes a shrewd trade he doesn't give us all the details ahead of time. To quote John Travolta in "SWORDFISH", "It's all about misdirection, Stanley". I remember the movie because Halle Berry was in it but I digress.

The corporate sector has begun the negotiation dance with the city in the hopes of getting the best deal possible for their companies. I doubt the public will be privy to these transactions. I am confident that the Caretaker and his partners will come to an agreement with the city in due time. The stadium will be built by the bay and all will be right with the world, except that Halle Berry doesn't know that I exist. :frowning:

Pat Lynch(the old guy in section 7)

Why don't they move the West End Stadium site a little further West say in the Cootes Paradise area or near McMaster University and close to the 403 highway and highway 6 area.

If the West Harbor of Hamilton becomes the final site selected by the Pan Am officials, Bob Young and all the partners and they expect thousands of fans to attend from outside the City, NO WAY, I as one will not travel to the West End of Hamilton to watch a game and many fans I know currently who reside in the Niagara Region, or Guelph, or north of of the 401 will never attend another home game if the new site is the West Harbor?? Now having said that, if the Ti-Cat Fans from Hamilton plan of coming out in droves to support their team something that is very rare and as you know many fans and management have tried to get more local fans out to the home games but if they truly decided to support their home team in the West End and Harbor area and sell out every home game than I would support that and say great, all the best for the Ti-Cats because the only thing I want to see in the final selection is a sell-out in whatever area they select. I may not be able to attend and others might not but if the stadium is close enough for citizens of Hamilton to attend and they pack the stands every game than that's what matters most! If not and it's only a dream or a lost cause than look to another location where people from Hamilton have access yet people outside the City have access to the QEW or 403 Highways.

Cheers Ti-Cat Fans and Eat Em Raw Tiger-Cats!!!!!

Huh?

For a Hamilton site, you can't get much closer for those folks.

Exit Hwy 6 to 403 Hamilton, and a very quick exit on York Blvd.

Google maps show it at as 8 minutes from the Hwy 6 exit at the 403 to Hess and Barton

If the West Harbor of Hamilton becomes the final site selected by the Pan Am officials, Bob Young and all the partners and they expect thousands of fans to attend from outside the City

Cybercat, my feeling is that should the west harbour actually become the site, and while it may appear in public that Bob Young and all the parnters are in the same agreement on the site, I think in reality what would be the case is that the site is selected by the Pan-Am officials and city as they’ve done, but that Bob Young and other partners will put on a brave face and smile even though they really didn’t select it but were forced into it and are going with the flow. The deal will be just good enough for them to put on a fake smile.

Sorry somehow what i wrote ended up inside your quote that will teach me to use an iphone on ticat forums

I hate to say it but I must disaggree with you on parking. A remote stadium on the mountain would have the room available for parking. Personally I live almost walking distance from the rheems site and I really dislike that spot. Thanks to our cities top notch bi-law enforcement alot of people in our city will choose to stay home many hamiltonians will not go downtown attractions on the mountain work ie. Limeridge mall compare that with Jackson square. Where are the theatres being built and most succesful buisness is on the mountain. From a buissnes prospective the mountain is where it's at.

tiger_dirt wrote:
"....The problem with parking downtown is that the Cats won't get any money for it. The key to the Cats having a stadium with parking that you have to pay for is that it's another revenue stream."

tiger-dirt: This in an excellent point.
However if the need for parking revenue is a deal breaker, then the Tiger-Cats should have laid it out on the table right from the beginning.
So far all we have got from the team (Scott Mitchell) about the harbourfront site is platitudes and waffle. That's not a criticism because I would think all options need to be kept open right now. Maybe the lack of parking revenue can be offset in the lease deal later on. Or maybe the team's partners just need more time to digest the implications of the west harbour site.
Can't really blame them if it's their money that will be shelled out.
No matter what site is chosen, compromises will have to be made. It seems to me that the west harbourfront has the best access (especially from Peterborough! :smiley: ), potential for improving the downtown area economically, and a location that will look great on TV and promotional material.
Is all that enough for other investors?
Until the team and its partners are ready to put forward their response, we'll just have to keep on guessing.

Do any of us know what is being discussed re; parking revenue? I don't think so.

As I've mentioned before, for all we know, the Ti-Cats and the city could very well be discussing sharing downtown parking revenues on gamedays. Isn't that a good comprimise that could make boths sides happy?

That would be a start, but the city doesn't have a monopoly on downtown parking so setting a price that provides adequate income for both parties will be an interesting process. There still needs to be work done to increasing the 600 onsite spots for practical reasons. The biggest issue I see is access and egress. Right now it would be mandatory to close Bay and Queen just to get the shuttles in and out in a timely fashion making the 600 proposed spots useless to fans anyway and drastically increasing traffic on side streets as people try to get down to the 1700 proposed Harbour spots. A way around that might be to presell premium parking and allow those 600 cars only thru a checkpoint and still close Queen and Bay. This still leaves the issue of increased side street traffic tho. Don't know the answer to that other than a blanket shutdown forcing everyone over to Victoria or James and across Burlington Street to the Harbour parking spots. this is not going to be an easy problem to solve without building a new road

Cap'n: That's pretty well what my complete post said. It was just my contribution to the completely uniformed (but natural) speculation this thread is about.

How about modifying Eastwood Park to allow gameday parking and doing a shuttle bus service from there? I'm not sure if it would work, I've never been to that park but from google maps it looks to be about twice the size of Scot park, and is close enough that you might not need more then 3-4 buses to have a 'every ten minutes' shuttle service. I would certainly de-congest the Harborfront area a little bit.

Oh, ok. Got it now. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Double that "huh" for me. Google maps states the distance from St Catharines to the Rheem site is six minutes more than Balsam Avenue. I know seven season ticket holders in St C and we'll happily drive the extra six minutes to have a drink downtown or in Hess Village before the game.

With all the talk about parking, I wonder if concessions are a bigger concern for the team. There have been one or two posts in the past about beer and food prices at the stadium, and the neighbourhood around IWS is not loaded with restaurants (as much as I like the Prince Eddy and Karlik's Pastry (go for the donuts, stay for the cake.)) If the city wants to make over downtown as a lively entertainment district, with shows, games, galleries, and restaurants, then success means that people will eat out before and after the game rather than at the game.

As for naming rights and visibility, mr62cats has the right idea. Visibility doesn't come from any highway. It's from television, print photos and the internet. I haven't been to CanadInns stadium since it was renamed, but I know its name. Ditto for the Bell Centre, Landsdowne, Commonwealth, BC Place ...

BigPOlish notes that Eastwood Park is nearby and might be used for tailgating. I wonder if Bayfront Park could be used for this purpose, too. Google maps suggests it's a seven minute walk.

Last, I find the critical comments about the neighbourhood really odd. I've lived in Hess Village, had friends live in the Kirkendale area and Market Street, and just never experienced problems. There are four or five parks, schools, churches, Dundurn Castle, the Workers' Heritage Museum, Hess Village, Bayfront Park. If I didn't work in St C, I'd look to buy in that area again.

I don't see where an extra 6-10 minutes is a big deal. Whatever.

In terms of stadium visibility, it seems in some circles highway visibility does matter. I read this before but I'll mention it again, or post this again, from North Texas' new stadium where highway exposure for the stadium is of interest down there. Maybe because there are so few football games, highway visibility is more important than say for arenas that are used more often, I don't know:

[i]Highway Exposure:

The stadium is bordered by both Interstate Highway-35 East and Interstate Highway-35 West. Both of these thoroughfares split adjacent to the site of the stadium and are the main interstate arteries through Texas, both north and south bound; I-35 East services Dallas and I-35 West services Forth Worth from Wichita, Kansas.

· The Texas Department of Transportation (TXDOT) determined that these two Interstate Highways generate traffic counts of 92,000 vehicles per day (I-35 East 61,000 per day and I-35 West 31,000 per day), 365 days a year. The traffic projections by TXDOT for this same corridor in 2020 are a staggering 147,500 vehicles per day. Literally millions of consumers every year will pass by this venue.

· The name will also prominently appear on signage in and around the stadium, including but not limited to scoreboards, entry gates and our large graphic reader board adjacent to Interstate 35. [/i]