Can’t believe it’s taking so long to solve the outstanding THF issues

Btw, this article contains some monetary details of the amounts claimed in the lawsuit in case anyone is interested:

From this article of 2016, what does “But the city is separately claiming $4.5 million in "delay damages" against the team, as well as breach of contract damages totaling $227,004 plus taxes.“. Even mean? Are they saying that the delay to the start of construction is on the Ticats? Hog wash! IO agreed to the time lines to completion, OSS agreed to it as well. So did every contractor involved.
Would like to know how much the Cats are suing the city for? According to Councillor Ferguson, it’s substantial. You would think that at least the Cats and city could negotiate a settlement quickly then get on with a Grey Cup bid.
(Wishful thinking on my part?).

To me, it's a pretty simple scenario.

The ticats are the tenant. The city is the landlord. There is a contract between the two that started on date x. The facility was not ready by date x and the Ticats lost revenue as a result. They sue the city for the lost revenue.

The city says, 'well it wasn't out fault. The builders didn't finish the facility on time, or properly, and that's why the revenue was lost'. The city then sues IO for the revenue lost that would then go to the Ticats.

I don't see how or why the city and Ticats would be enemies in this case.

Yes, but that’s over simplifying things.

You also had a team that worked hand in hand with the city and didn’t balk at the location a year before the build (despite the city previously communicating publicly for well over 4 years before the build that location is where they were looking to build and the owner of the team saying they didn’t care where it was built so long as it was in Hamilton) and thus delayed construction for a year. The Riders also never threatened to move to Saskatoon if they didn’t get what they wanted and

You also didn’t have a city that was split pretty much 50/50 down the middle as to who was right in this argument and who despite years of having an inept and dysfunctional council continues to elect the same councilors who enjoy an absurd incumbency rate (with the majority of council having held their position since 2006 or earlier). You also don’t have councilors who since amalgamation in 2001 STILL tout deamlgamation as a campaign talking point (despite it being a provincial matter and city council having literally no say in changing it).

That’s even before we discuss how poor a job the current government of Ontario does things.

Delay damages are the amountsclaimed by the city because the stadium was supposed to be ready June 1 & the Ticats weren’t able to play their first game there until Labour Day that year. The breach of contract damages are the specific penalties laid out in the contract for when timelines aren’t met.

As for the amount the Ticats are suing the city for, it’s in the article:

The city’s claim includes $14 million on behalf of the Ticats football team, which has a lease agreement that requires the city to pursue compensation on behalf of its tenant for missed games due to construction delays.

The Cats & the city cannot settle the suit because they are not the only parties named in the suit. In other words, any settlement has to include ALL parties named in the action.

I would think that if the city is seeking 35 million, the number the Cats are looking for is somewhere between that and 4.5 million, since due to the nature of the agreement with the city, claims must flow through them.

Frankly, if the team is seeking even half of that 35 million, that’s crazy. I can accept lost revenue due to games is likely around a million a game, and can accept lost revenue due to seating and certain deficiencies amounts to 5 million (which I think is generous) but 17.5 million? That strikes me as WAY too much.

Agreed. If the Ticats are really pulling in that much revenue, then the players are getting totally underpaid. CFLPA would have a lot to say during the next round of negotiations.

From the Lease agreement, to which the TiCats pay up to $1.4M/yr
(FYI- the lease at IWS was $26K/yr.)

The team’s lease agreement with the city calls for compensation of up to $1 million a game for missed home dates due to construction. But the team has had to contend with other construction issues such as missing draft beer lines, damaged outdoor television monitors and hundreds of seats with blocked views.

In the 2014 season THF was not at first available until Labour day where they only had two thirds of the Stadium opened, It was not fully functional until week 20

The TiCats lost the full use of THF for 8 games of that season
Since the TiCats suspected problems with the Stadium and they back end loaded that schedule with early bye weeks and more home games in the last half of the season.
So 4 home gates at MAC including preseason = $4M
and 5 partial lost home gates = say $2M
Rent paid to MAC = say $2M
Other lost miscellaneous revenue from delayed Stadium until week 20 = say another $4M

It’s getting closer to $14M

Plus there's probably a bit of "shoot high" so when it gets knocked down at the end it's still acceptable, from all parties involved.

I don't know if there's a rule on this forum against reinvigorating the stadium debate but since it's already been brought up, all this would have been avoided if the Ticats had accepted the beautiful new waterfront stadium that was originally planned. The problems at THF are due to the construction being rushed on a design that was half-ass in the first place. Like seriously how did they think they would come out better with THF? We could be preparing for a Grey Cup right now if they had just stuck with the plan.

We’d be still playing at Ivor Wynn because the residents would have held up stadium development in the Ontario Municipal Board, and then waiting for land remediation. As such, the stadium dollars from the province and feds would have gone elsewhere.

I don't think that's true. The city wasn't delayed in knocking down all those buildings, they could have started the remediation work which would have been much less extensive than what's required for residential development. The only group that would have fought the stadium was North End Neighbours. They are known for taking everything to the OMB (which usually favours the developers) but they may have backed down had the City and the Ticats been in agreement and the rest of the city behind the project. At worst it would have been a year or so delay, all the while remediation and design work continues.

The remediation would probably not be that quick or easy. Much of the land not residential was highly industrial so highly polluted. Besides an unknown time factor was the unknown cost of remediation. Estimates at the time ranged from a low of $3 million to somewhere over $30 million!, money not included in the $145 million stadium budget.

Plus IMO, one of the other sites rejected (deliberately not even studied) by the city would have been better and preferable to the west harbour site… a “discussion? and solution long past.

I don’t believe for a minute that most of the land that was going to be used on the harbour front would have been usable without millions in remediation of all the heavy metals dumped there over a hundred years. Zoning was an issue.
I agree in utopia it was perfect but reality is it would have been a nightmare as well.
How is the design “half assed?. What do you want for the $145 or so million to build? This is not Investors Field or the new Mosaic . They were at least $100 million more.
Everyone from IO down signed off on the timeline. Issues were highlighted throughout the build with IO saying “don’t worry…it’s all under control?. So I don’t blame the Cats or the City for a late delivery and especially for construction delays and shoddy workmanship. I heard from a friend , who is in construction and was working at HTF , that it was a mess dealing with the prime contractor right from the beginning. No one to blame but IO (a Liberal creation) that was ill conceived at the outset.

It was a once in a 100 yr chance and it was blown by the ticats. Opportunity lost.having said that aren’t you enjoying the new stadium district.what a great place for an evening out!

You are correct it’s not just about the remediation but what about the fact there would be one single lane road going in there, no parking, no bus route set up. I assume people would walk from the downtown?
The IWS site was already zoned for a stadium, drainage, electrical and transportation route already established and the quickest site to get built before they lost the Pan Am funding.
I’m sure that if the city had $200 Million or so kicking around they could have taken their time and built eventually somewhere else.

How far do people walk to parking now?

Not to rehash the whole debate, the west harbour location has many of the same so-called short comings as the present THF site. Limited parking and restricted access within a residential neighbourhood. West harbour may even be worse re traffic as the only major roads in/out are Bay St and perhaps Barton to Queen. Barton east of Bay is one lane each way to James. Northern routes to Burlington go thru tight residential areas. Of 25,000 fans, how many would use the supposed “plus? of the GO station?

The present Ivor Wynne site was the only option given the City’s obstinate single-minded focus on west harbour and nothing else.

How would you compare the two districts?

The City got a $150M Stadium for $50M in an area of the City that doesn’t really ever see that kind of investment. The City and the taxpayers did well in this deal
The $50M was from the future fund, so Hamilton taxes didn’t go up 1 thin dime to finance it.
The TiCats now pay $1.4M/yr for rent at THF, compared to the $26K/yr they paid for IWS.
THF is built to Silver LEED standards so the City pays much less for Hydro, heating and cooling, etc.
Compared to utilty costs at IWS.
At IWS, the stands were falling apart, the turf needed replacing, the big ticket deficiencies at IWS probably numbered in the 1000’s.

We should give it up! A case of crying over spilled milk(milk that was spilled 4 years ago)
It is now up to the Cats and Council to make this work