Blue Jays Have Lost Their Minds

Gurriel and Moreno traded for Varsho . Management has just lost it ! Moreno and Kirk were the young catching combo for the next 5-10 years . Now they have an outfielder/catcher who will have to have a super season , in order to save the jobs of the Cleveland Carpetbaggers that manage the Jays .

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I despise the BJs

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Perhaps they said they wanted to be traded or would not play until that took place... Pro sports has lots of divas

Guriel had a great year but off season surgery drops his value considerably
He also is a free agent next year which means either substantial pay increase or your "5-10 years" is a pipe dream
Also 29 is not really young; it is pretty close to avg (middle age) career wise

Moreno is a prospect who has never proven himself (did poorly last year as well)
25 games but a 4-13 record on a proven team that made the playoffs is def underwhelming

Varsho is under contract until 2027
Had more power than Gurriel + Moreno combined
And (unlike G+M) is a left handed bat

The only way this trade "sucks" is if Moreno develops into something but that is years away (at least in your 5-10 year window during which time Jays have extra cash in hand to upgrade Varsho should the need arise)


Big fan of Varsho. Jays improved defensively big time.

Would have liked to see them get a reliever as part of the deal but it's a good trade for Toronto. Kiermaier, Springer Varsho is a great defensive OF...... If they stay healthy.

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An interesting viewpoint on this deal is that Moreno , Gurriel and Teoscar are no longer with the club . The Barrio has taken a major hit at the end of the dugout . I wonder what the reaction will be from Berrios , Manoah , Kirk , Espinal and especially Vladimir Guerroro .
Vladdy is under Jay control till 2025 when he will be 26 years old . If he's not sold on these recent trade moves then the club could lose the best young player they have . The Jays (Cleveland Indian) management duo is running out of time . Good luck Toronto fans with your new 5' 10" outfielder/catcher/first baseman .

In a new environment, unburdened by the Cleveland Carpetbaggers, Moreno could easily develop into a top-flite catcher; perhaps playing 120 to 125 games and being a pinch-hitter when not playing.
There's lots of catchers who can catch 120 games and limit the errors (passed balls) and errant throws to 2nd so final judgement rests on Moreno's bat. He'll have to carve out a minimum .240/.245 average with decent power numbers (20HR, 55+ rbis) to tilt the trade.
Of course, if Varsho crashes all bets are off.
But Varsho batting .270 or better, hacking 25-30 rbis and playing gold glove field is a winner for the Jays.
Biggest problem with the Jays is Vladimir Guerrero's power numbers beginning to freeze below expectations. I think Guerrero has peaked. Decent power numbers, lower than expected batting average, hits into too many double plays & too easy to pitch around.

Isn't he 4 inches taller than Kirk?

Vlad won't see free agency. At least in 25.

Kirk won't be climbing the wall in left field . Kirk hit 285 with 14 HRs and 63 RBIs . Varsho hit 235 with 27 HRs and 74 RBIs . Kirk won the Silver Slugger for catchers and is 2" shorter than Varsho . Yogi Berra was 5' 7" .
Speaking of climbing the wall , Gurriel is 6 ' 2" and has a cannon for an arm . He can also play first base where the MLB average height is also 6 ' 2", not 5' 10" .
If the Jays are so enamored with Varsho , why not send Jansen , Biggio , and Merrifield the other way ? Jansen has a lifetime batting average of 223 . Last year was an outlier , so move him while you can . Biggio is a bust and a wasted at bat . Merrifield is 34 years old in January .
Needless to say , I think the Jays got fleeced . :laughing:

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Agree with most. The biggest bargaining chip that the Toronto group was jonesing about was Varsho. Don't think the other team would have taken a Biggio, Merrifield, Jansen package - Jansen still very serviceable but nobody in baseball wants the other two guys (1 is a bust, the other verges on infirmity).
Didn't know Varsho batted so low. Problem there!
If Varsho can get to .250 and gold field, ram 25-35 HRs (should get some help batting in some of the AL East batting cages that pass as major league ball parks) Moreno will need to be an everyday starter and come close to matching Varsho's batting numbers.
If Varsho busts, those Cleveland rounders running the Jays should finally be buried & sealed underground.

Gurriel, Jr. is just a hedge against both Varsho & Moreno under-performing. Gurriel is an old-style baseball player with the arm-cannon and half decent power/average numbers!

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Gurriel missed what about 60 games this year. A cannon of an arm does you no good when it's in the dugout when you need it on the field.....

Or when he's throwing it to the wrong base behind runners.

I think they upgraded their defence - which was problematic all down the stretch. I couldn't count the number of times I heard "you aren't going anywhere in the playoffs playing like that".

Couldn't agree more.
They have seriously upgraded their defence.

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Moreno, 22 years old, was considered one of the top prospects in baseball prior to exhausting his rookie eligibility last season. In 25 games with the big-league team, he batted .319/.356/.377 (111 OPS+) with a home run. Moreno has received strong marks from evaluators for his pure hitting ability, and his improved defense gives him a high floor. CBS Sports ranked him as Toronto's top prospect entering last spring.

Moreno would seem to be ready to slot in behind the plate for the Diamondbacks. Incumbent backstop Carson Kelly has been a well-below-average hitter in two of the last three seasons.

No question Diamondbacks don't make the trade unless they intend to put Moreno behind the plate and let Carson Kelly be his relief caddy.
If Moreno projects the same high numbers but can jack up his jack-up numbers (HRs) the trade is a steal for Arizona.
But I'm talking consistent seasons of 20 to 30 (or more) dingers, in addition to the requisite clutch-hitting.

Having an anchor catcher with those numbers for a minimum 10 yr period trumps anything Varsho can do in the next 3 or 4 yrs (his best before date)

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Openly wonder what the Cleveland Carpetbaggers would yield if they put Vladdy Guerrero, Jr. on the trade block?
Prolly not as much as one would think!
Vladdy is a big hitter and an amazingly under-rated 1st basemen for his body shape & size. But he's a total streak-hitter, hits into far too many double plays and his clutch-hitting is not that sparkly, even with the BJs protecting him.

Might be able to get a decent #2 hurler who's under 29 and capable of his arm not falling off in the near future PLUS a top prospect. I don't think any organization would give the Jays a top 5 hurler plus their top organizational prospect.
Here's the deal. Jays management overrates Vladdy!
Other teams managements underrate Vladdy!

Again his extended stat line is mediocre at best (WAR, 162WL%, as well his power kinda sucks ISO, and to ice it off he had a very poor calling record as a catcher 4-13)
He also was a dead runner (no extra base hits, all singles, and once gets on base doesn't score enough)

Its baseball
Lots of prospects fail to amount to anything
But offence, defence, leadership/calling the game
All are at best avg (aka easily replaceable for those in the moneyball era) and at worst a never-will-be

They traded for Gurriel really
Not Moreno

(Now IF he does have some progression this is a bad trade, but Jays have an equal chance in just drafting another rando as they do in hoping Moreno comes around)

AND offseason surgery (Oct)
He may be finished as well

Either way I fail to see why OP thinks this is a pathetic trade

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