Yes of course that was your best point, but hopefully you read the rest of my post.
Leaf's record as a starter is terrible, but it's not like Russell's is great. 8 is greater than 2, but both are atrocious. I'd say this is a tie or at worst a slight "win" for Leaf.
Russell is either last or tied for last in every major statistical category for QBs since he entered the league. If I was to look back, Leaf was probably the same, or at least close enought to say that this is another tie.
Also, Russell pocketed $39.6 million. Yes, we can adjust for inflation, but the raw numbers still say Russell took home more than Leaf. That, to me, is a point for Russell.
Paolo has already touched on the NFL Films piece, so I won't say anymore about that. Except that in 5 years time don't be surprised to see that same list with Leaf at #2 and Russell at #1.
My biggest point for Russell is that the Raiders had the 1st pick in the draft. They could have had any player they wanted. They chose Russell. The Chargers had the 2nd pick and had to settle for who the Colts didn't take. Had Leaf gone 1st, no doubt he's the biggest bust ever because of what Manning has become. This wouldn't even be a debate. But that didn't happen so that's why I give my support, if you will, to Russell. Look at who went after him. Yes, I understand that the Raiders needed a QB, but out of the other players in the top half of the draft in the 2007, the Raiders passed on:
In 1998, the Chargers really only passed on Randy Moss, Charles Woodson, and maybe Fred Taylor. The trade-up to get him does provide a compelling case for Leaf, but had the Chargers stayed at #3 they probably would've drafted Andre Wadsworth (who is a bust in his own right) so either way their pick would've been wasted.
I won't say it's a landslide for Russell, but in my mind he's crept ahead of Leaf as the biggest draft bust of all time.
You make some very good arguments. I will concede a tie.
To add to the debate I think if you look strictly at play I'll give you Russel as the bigger bust but the reason people will remember Leaf longer is the character side of things. Sure Russel may be a lazy pig but he doesn't come close to having the issues Leaf did. Maybe it was the pressure but the guy offended everyone who came into contact with him. You don't have to watch a lot of youtube videos to realize why this guy is known as a jack-ass
I'll take it.
We're really just debating between terrible and atrocious. At the end of the day they both sucked.
Leaf was a giant ass, and definitely has that going against him. From what I've read, Russell wasn't the greatest teammate either. Of course, Russell doesn't have video of him screaming at members of the media like Leaf does. Leaf was just bad from day 1. I'll never forget an interview I saw of Colts GM Bill Polian. He said he asked both Manning and Leaf what they'd do the day after they were drafted. Manning's said he'd be at the Colts facility digesting the playbook, whereas Leaf said he'd take his buddies to party Vegas. To think these two were once considered even close is stunning.
If that's true, then I'd have to say Leaf isn't all there... What kind of response is that? lol
Bill Polian and Bill Belichek I am convinced are the savviest guys who engineer a high percentage of successful drafts and trades including also with free agents and off-the-radar guys. Their opposite is Al Davis I think.
No doubt if that is true, Leaf's response indicated early his immaturity and Polian was savvy enough to notice and keep his cards to his vest.
Perhaps you like me had a lot of growing up to do at that age too if you are now well over 30, but at least I knew better than to make such comments to an employer when it is a BUSINESS meeting. It would seem fundamental that when someone is considering whether or not to pay you money for work, you stick to business right?
Leaf and Russell are hardly alone with many guys that age, just as their peers pursuing "regular" jobs, in not being able to make an easy transition to the NFL game, a massive BUSINESS not just a game, despite exceptional physical talents.
Heck I had a really hard time myself making the transition to life and growing up, despite having stayed out of trouble for the most part and with good grades, so I am not being critical of that factor in and of itself as it is so common.
Like any other game at the highest of levels and unlike most of college football to this day, tactics beat talent 9 times out of 10 at the very least amongst professionals.
The NFL scouts have learned many such a lesson the hard and expensive way with all the busts and disappointments with record compensation since about 1995. Now rightly so they place character concerns at the top of the list of items to evaluate when drafting or scouting over and above the talent at hand.
Even so understandably teams still will take that extra chance on some players with off-the-field issues yet without a serious criminal conviction or serious drug use who are of exceptional talent as evidenced by the likes of Randy Moss, but the threshhold for such ultra-freakish talent is even higher than it was then due to the more damaging legal and other trouble looming for all parties.
And no doubt obviously they do their diligence to the extreme such that they even cross the line as that Miami GM Ireland did with Dez Bryant though it was not quite in the context reported originally. In reality that episode was arguably as bad as questions that Gerhart and Rolle got, when understood in proper context, though it crossed the line all the same.
I've a problem with that. Personally, I think Polian's an idiot who thinks as long as he keeps tossing weapons at Manning, the Colts will win championship after championship. This is the first year, in God knows how many, when he actually decided to address the defence, the long known weak spot of the Colts, and even still he went small and fast.
And God help the Colts if he decides to beef up the O-Line like it was rumoured he was going to do.
(A tangential Colts homer aside discussion so please ignore if you are not interested in the Colts who do draft well for offence but not so much for defence)
Chief as also a Colts fan and homer of course I agree with you on defence and I am highly concerned with the defence as are you. I don't get the smaller and faster approach when playing the 4-3 either for all but the DTs, but for some reason he does find good though undersized pass rushers including Freeney as one of the best. I did NOT like the re-signing of basic run-stopper with poor coverage skills Gary Brackett for example.
Also I am less than impressed with the current coach Jim Caldwell who was "cool man Luke" making no changes at all to allow the Super Bowl loss. Dungy was rather cool in his time but intense inside and as privately as possible when addressing players on the sidelines, but with Caldwell it seems he is over his head or aloof and does nothing when the course of the game merits emergency changes to the game plan. Somehow he skipped the chapter on no matter how sound your battle plan so far, at some point you must adapt to overcome to retain the higher ground. As challenging as that is in itself, that's far easier than to try to regain it later when you lose it as the Colts did.
I disagree with you though for sake of the offence, as Polian has it right all-around and offence is NOT the reason the Colts lose. That's the wrong place to slam him Chief -- I say leave well enough alone with Manning et al. It's no accident that even low-round draft pick receivers are turned into feature players in that offense as they would be likely marginalised or not even on the field in other offenses with the likes of New England one notable exception.
Whoa, there. Polian was the architect behind the Bills' teams that went to four straight Super Bowls. He then became GM of the Panthers, and added the pieces that got them to the NFC title game in their second year of existence. He then went to Indy where he has built a juggernaut. The Colts were a complete joke before Polian arrived. They had very few winning seasons, and never really had sustained excellence before Polian came on board.
The only real knock on Polian's teams is that they don't often win it all. His teams are like the Atlanta Braves or Montreal Alouettes.
Great information Blogskee, and as far as not winning it all it used be the damn Patriots all too often, who are never to be taken for granted, but before the last Super Bowl it's always been the damn Chargers or Steelers! :roll:
I'm not worried about the Steelers this year, nor should anyone be worried about them any more in that conference, but like for the Ravens even when you win you'll be badly beaten up.
u know where bill polian got his start? the cfl? u know what team? the blue bombers.. u know how many grey cups they won when he was in charge of the bombers? more than 3.
dudes a football genius.
And that's my issue...
Made the playoffs in 9 of the last 10 seasons.
Hold the record for most consecutive seasons with 12 or more wins at 7.
Hold the record for most wins in a decade at 115.
And how many championships do they have? 1...
That lies with Polian.
Hang in there Chief ...Super Bowl trophy for 2006 and Super Bowl opportunity screwed up having nothing to do with him in 2009 ...more looming ahead as long as they don't screw up the defence again, though it does not have to be near the best of course, and just let the offence fly! If anyone is going to screw things up now it will be either the linebacking corp or Caldwell. I thought they really screwed up the draft for the most part already. :roll:
I disagree, I think the fact that they won that many games in the regular season and weren't as successful in the playoffs lies on the coaches and players shoulders. Obviously Polian got the talent there that was able to win, the coaches and players just didn't get it done. The GM's job is pretty much done once playoffs come around.
Blogskee and all, this ought eliminate any remaining doubt in this debate I think.
Here's the link again in question Russell -- he's been a real loser for a lot longer than hardly any of us knew, and if you actually believe he went three years without abusing any drugs after reading this, well shoot me an e-mail so I can sell you some bridges at some great prices![url=http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-nfl-headlines/136799-ex-raiders-qb-jamarcus-russell-admits-failed.html]http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-n ... ailed.html[/url]
See if you don't do a double-take with regard to the section in bold text as well as if he expects folks to believe him!
Free-agent quarterback JaMarcus Russell told ESPN's Colleen Dominguez he tested positive for codeine after the Raiders drafted him with the No. 1 pick in the 2007 draft. [b]Russell said he had a prescription at the time, but it was not from the team doctor, so he failed the drug test. He says the allegations of drug use stem from that positive test. Russell also said he has used codeine without a prescription but that it has been three years and that he does not have a drug problem. Russell was arrested in July for alleged possession of codeine.[/b]