bad refs!!!

And the fact we couldn’t score three times from the one yard line…Any cheese to go with the whine?

Refs were a non issue in this game imo. The calls were fair, including the Philips pass interference. He was all over him before he even looked for the ball.

BC didn't need any help from the refs to lose this game. We shot our own foot.

The reason the down wasn't repeated was that first down yards had already been gained at the time of the infraction. It's the same as when there's a hold: if the player had gained a first down, they still get the first down but ten yards back from where the ball was at the time; if not, the down is repeated ten yards back from the line of scrimmage.

We hardly ever see the "forward fumble"; so I wasn't sure what the rule was. I expected there to be a yardage penalty, but thought it would be first and ten from the 11. But Rule 6, Section 3, Article 2 says:

"An offside pass shall be ruled as having occurred in the following situations:
(a)On a scrimmage play,a Team A player makes an offside pass after crossing the line of scrimmage...
PENALTY :Ball to team making offside pass,at point of origin of pass (downs continue unless yards gained at that point,or option)."

Kudos to the refs, who made the 100% correct call in a situation that rarely comes up.

Very valid comments.

We don’t expect a receiver to catch 100% of passes thrown his way, because they are human and we can’t expect them to be perfect.

We don’t expect a QB to have a 100% completion rate, because they are human and we can’t expect them to be perfect.

Same applies to referees.

Amen to that brotha.

My problem is that there was a penalty! Yet no-one was penalized!(Im refering to the rule, not the call)
If the QB throw the ball forward after crossing the line of scrimmage…there is a 10 yards penalty!

Remember the 2005 Grey Cup?
In OT AC threw a forward pass, it was deflected back into his arms and he threw it again. I know its not the same thing but there was a 10 yard penalty.

To me if there is a penalty there should be a penalty!

The penalty is as follows: Ball to team making offside pass, at point of origin of pass (downs continue unless yards gained at that point, or option).

The QB wouldn't have gained the yards before making the offside pass...in this case, the yards were gained when the infraction occurred. I think that's why.

So why then if the QB throws after passing the LOS does the ball move back 10 instead of just concidering it to be a dead ball?

Same with it being thrown twice?

Here’s how the illegal forward pass / offside pass duality work:

Definitions:

  • A pass’ origin is where it leaves the passer’s hand(s).
  • A pass’ terminating point is where the pass is first touched or hits the ground.
  • An offside pass is when the pass’ point of origin is closer to your own goal line than the point of terminiation.

So the pass in question is an offside pass. So is a regular forward pass from a QB.

On every offside pass, the officials determine if either:

  • the passer should have had a reasonable understanding that the pass originated from beyond the LS, OR
  • the passer could have had a reasonable understanding that the pass originated from behind the LS

If (1) was the ruling, it is an offside pass, subject to penalty. The penalty is that the play goes back to the point of origin of pass. AND there is NOT one more play if time expired, or it is a turnover on downs if on 3rd down, they didn’t make yards.

If (2) was the ruling, and the pass was ruled illegal, it is a 10 yard penalty from the LS, down repeated.

Second forward passes are by definition an IFP - 1o yard penalty, repeat the down.

Failing this explanation, the history of the rule relates to how football emerged from rugby back in the late 1800s I believe.

I really don't like this forum software - I had a great reply written to ro1313 and then it forgot I was logged in and I lost the whole thing.

I'll summarize what I had:

  1. More than one forward pass on a play. Remember that, by rule, a forward pass originates behind the line of scrimmage and is thrown toward the opponent's dead ball line. This means that you're only likely to see a call for a second forward pass on a pass that was supposed to be a lateral that was actually forward. A second "forward" pass recovered by the offense downfield would be flagged as an offside pass.

  2. Illegal forward pass. This is the judgement of the Referee by rule and the line of scrimmage officials in practise -- they're judging intent (was it planned to be a forward pass?). I'm 99% sure the CFL has a casebook to assist with calling this but they probably give about 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage for what is obviously intended to be a forward pass.

  3. Offside Pass. What's not very well stated in the rulebook is that the reception of the offside pass is what makes it legal/illegal, not throwing the ball perse. I have three examples:

3a) Ball thrown forward, tipped by an eligible receiver in an offside direction, recovered by an eligible receiver downfield. This is ruled as a completed forward pass.

3b) Same situation except an ineligible receiver recovers downfield (screen pass comes to mind). Ruled as a completed pass (to the eligible receiver) with an offside pass originating where the eligible receiver tipped the ball. Penalty is that downs continue at the point of the pass.

3c) Receiver runs 20 yards downfield and throws the ball forward to a defender (unlikely, but possible). No flag, no foul [ok, well, somebody would probably throw a flag but it would be waved off]

I have one question before I continue…When you say closer to your goal line…Is that the goal you are defending or the goal you are trying to cross

When I say “your own goal line” - it refers to the goal line with the end zone that you’re defending.

why would the flag be waved off in example 3C?

BTW

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Waived off in (3c) because a defender recovered the offside pass. An offside pass (that is subject penalty) is only a problem if the same team recovers the ball. The flag is often thrown anyways, to mark the spot the throw originated from, in case it is need (because the same team recovered the pass). Officials can't tell the future, so they throw the flag anyways, and then if it's not needed, the head referee will waive it off.

I got ya
Thanks

ro - it’s a horror show when this thing forgets I log in. Hitting the back button cleared out everything I had written. Just me bellyaching…I know this happens so I should have been smart enough to copy and paste before I hit submit.

Anyway,

why would the flag be waved off in example 3C?

JugglingReferee is right.

Remember what I wrote though - throwing the offside pass isn’t illegal - the issue is the legal/illegal recovery of the pass. The foul is unfortunately named because it’s announced as “offside pass” when “illegal recovery of an offside pass” would be more appropriate.

Actually, I do remember that game, and that play. If you remember, the penalty was declined because the second pass was incomplete. Had it been caught (for a touchdown), there would have been a 10-yard penalty.

I agree with you that a 10-yard penalty would have been FAIR (first and 10 on the 11), but it would have been INCORRECT. The rules as they are now state that there is no yardage penalty. I don’t know why that is; maybe it’s that’s so that there is no judgement call by the ref as to whether it was a deliberate forward lateral, which should be penalized, or whether it was a legitimate fumble or an attempt at a legitimate lateral, which should not be penalized.

With a second forward pass, as AC attempted in the Grey Cup, there was no judgement call necessary. A second forward pass on a play is always illegal.

I understand that the call on Logan was according to the rules. However, I don't think it's fair, and I think the rule should be changed. If you fail in the attempt, you're not penalized at all for doing something illegal, and that should be changed. Five yards tacked on in penalty yardage would be fine IMO.

I dont mean to take this offtopic but the penalty was accepted because it took them out of field goal range which would have tied the game!
I have the game on DVD Ill check it to be sure

Yup it was accepted and pushed them back to the 45!