Argos Being Isolated In Hogtown

Don’t worry too much about the Argos, the CFL is ok right now. Sokolowski will not be laid out to dry by Tanenbaum I don’t think, they have some very common interests in business and personal life me thinks. If you’re a baseball fan, worry very, very much about the Blue Jays, as we both say.

berezin - Bill Watters over Forbes?
ok - I'll just say I'm not going to ask him or you for financial/ investment advice.
MLSE made $83 Millon profit on a revenue stream of $383 million and value of $1 billion in assets. That's Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment - not the Leafs...

MLSE includes TML, The ACC, Raptors, TFC, Maple Leaf Square (worth $500 million), Leafs/ Raptors TV/HD and the Marlies. I'm pretty sure that everyone else made more than $3 million - otherwise I'm sure the board would have something to say about that.... MLSE made $8 Million off the naming rights of BMO Field last year.. please come back with some credible sources before ranting.

Earl - you're right on both counts

I don't care about those numbers. Because the bottom line is take the Leafs out of MLSE and it ain't worth 2 cents.

And funny how your points are facts, and mine are rants? Whatever.

It's probably got something to with the fact that he backs his points up with facts from credible sources, while you prefer just to state YOUR opinion on the topic.

First off, I don't see his where he got his facts from? I think Bill Watters would know a thing or two about the inner workings of MLSE, since he actually worked there.

And second, anybody with brains knows take away the Leafs, and MLSE would fall like a house of cards. The Leafs are MLSE.

And third. I don't really care what you consider my opinions. Then again I don't have a superiority complex.

My facts are from you might have heard of them. I know who Bill Watters is and like you said - he worked there... past tense.. MLSE no longer give him the annual financial reports. He may know how things work there he no longer actually sees the whole financial picture of MLSE. What he said was a generalization.. a very simple and not very accurate one. Forbes actually does a little more in depth analysis of the business.

And I already know the Leafs are the main part of MLSE. however as a corporation they have spread their money into other areas such as basketball, soccer, arena management and real estate. The Leafs make money.. lots of it. We all know that.

Berezin - if you don't care about what somebody considers of your opinions that makes you a fool. Better to stay silent and have people think you are a fool than to open one's mouth and prove it....

Back to the original point - I just don't think there is a plot to destroy the Argos and it's fan base... it doesn't make any sense as to why anyone would do that. And about you point ot it being illegal - the other owners getting together and leaving the Aros ownership out - can you explain how you think that?

So lets see here.
I am a fool because I don't agree with your opinion? But you're a genius because its your opinion?

And about Forbes? They have been known to be wrong on alot of things. And If MLSE keeps their financing quiet, how would Forbes get the information?

And I was talking about businesses colluding to destroy the competition. Because thats creating a monopoly and collusion. Which is not allowed in Candian business and is illegal.

If all these teams getting together use their leverage to get better TV deals and media coverage and corporate support, then it does hurt the Argos.

Not at all - I did not call you a fool. I said if you don't care what others think about your opinion that makes you a fool. I'm willing to believe that based on you responses, you do care what others think. That makes you not a fool.

Never said I was a genius...

True, Forbes has been wrong in the past on some things but they are usually on the mark. MLSE reports to the OTPP.. The profit information is published in the OTPP annual report. That is availiable to the public. MLSE tends not to go public because they are not publically traded.
However finances and annual reports must go to the parent company or in this case owners of the company. It takes a little work but the info is there if one knows where to look. Every now and then they have to let some info out - because its good PR - like valuations, tickets sold and basic revenue... Forbes can fill in the rest.

I can see where you are going with the monoply thing but as far as I understood collusion comes into play when rivals cooperate for their mutal benefit on
Pricing, penalties for discounting, advance notice, etc. What monopoly would be created it MLSE along with a few billionaires owned all of Toronto's franchises?.... none - because as an industry they still have competition from other teams within the various leauges.... It serves no purpose to destroy the Argos and it's fan base.
As far as using leverage for better TV deals. that's actually smart business and something the CFL should have done back in the 80's when the NFL did.

Another example of this groups intentions?
When the Raptors were on the virge of dying, Godfrey brokered a deal between them and MLSE.
When the Jays were on the virge of leaving, Godfrey got Rogers to buy the team.
When the Argos did nothing, Godfrey did absolutely squat to save them.
This right there shows their true intentions.
They don’t want the ARgos in their group, and will do nothing to keep them in existnace.

When? When was this?


It was before the Leafs bought the Raptors.
The Raptors were playing at Maple Leaf GArdens to tiny crowds. The arena they were trying to build they didn't have the funds to complete.
The only reason the Leafs bought the Raptors was to get the arena. Which they ended up finishing.
If the Leafs had built their own arena on their own, which they should have, the RAptors would have been stuck finisihing the Air Canada Centre. Or else folding.

And considering the disaster the franchise was at the time, they would have folded. The Leafs saved basketball in Toronot.

But since then the Leafs have been the team that has suffered. I say a lousy move by them to buy the RAptors. But the Leafs and dumb moves go hand in hand.

There freezing out the Argos with synergey from there own group of teams/companies. Just like the way the Hunt team in Ottawa will use synergey between his 2 teams in his favor.

Thats right.
The teams in the MLSE/Rogers monopoly will be able to tell sports networks that if you want to Leafs, you have to take everybody else as well.

Or tell media outlets that if you want better access to the Leafs, you have to give the rest of the teams priority coverage.

I even read a few years back that Rogers and MLSE would have their own pay channels involving all the teams in the group. So that to get the Leafs you'd also have to pay for the other teams as well.

The ARgos I think are in a weak position because they haven't got their own stadium. Whats to stop Godfrey and freinds from booting them out so they can rework the Skydome for the NFL?

And don't buy what Godfrey is spouting. This guy is a politician who is only out to line his pockets. If the cFL died tomorrow in Toronto he would dance on its grave.

berezin - what you fail to understand is that as a corporation MLSE or Rogers it is their duty to make sure that all under their respective umbrellas are successful - that's not collusion - it just good business sense. If that means packaging all teams together in tv deals or season ticket packages so be it. If you owned 3 or 4 teams would you sit and watch while one died? No you wouldn't.... Plain and simple the Argos got themselvs into a bad situation. They don't have a home of their own because of their own finances and dealings They have screwed over 3 different groups when it came to stadium deals and now they may have backed themselves into a corner. Guess what.. that's business. They made the bad moves.. why should someone bail them out when there is very little in it for them? Look, I love the Argos but I just don't see any conspiracy here. What I see is a bunch of owners who don't really know how to make in roads with the movers and shakers of Toronto and work themselves into a better situation.

FYI the Leafs have actually done better since being taken over by MLSE... remenber the Ballard years or the early seventies... ? Think on those decades and compare them to the Leafs of the 90's and 00's

As for saving basketball - you'll see that in a few years that may have been the best decision MLSE ever made. They now have a great arena, near sold out games for basketball and potential playoffs/ championship.... how is that a bad thing?
How would the Leaf done better without the stadium deal or the Raptors? In fact they would have spent a lot more cash to build a stadium on their own.

Oh and the Raptors never played out of Maple Leaf Gardens.. they played in the SkyDome from 1995 to 1996 and attendance didn't really dip until 2003 - 2006 after a sub .500 performances and not making the playoffs. In fact they led the league in sellouts from 2000 - 2002. not exactly suffering..

And as for what's to stop Godfrey and pals from booting the Argos out? .... nothing. It's owned by someone other than the Argos and it's their(Roger's) choice... So again I ask... What do the Argos do to improve their situation?

How about an inquiry into the sale of the Sky dome to Rogers for 25 million, that building cost Ontario taxpayers half a billion dollars to build.?? :twisted: And the cfl is expected to compete in a fare free market?? how about an inquiry into Rogers dealings!! is very simple in terms of the broadcasting...where does Rogers get more play from there coverage of CFL games or the coverage of the is the CFL games right now.

Look at the big bad machine that is the NFL. They have tried to force the largest cable company in the US to change the way they carry their station. The cable company has no.

Rogers right now owns one of the biggest cable companies in Canada, at to that he owns some of the cable channels. But yet they still can't get decent coverage of the jays and/or raptors on basic cable or teir 1 cable. Does that tell you something. They don't control the world or the media.

Converting the Skydome into the an NFL style field. Never happen, they couldn't do enough renovations to that building to hold 70,000 fans, that would be required to support the game.

Who's fault was that? You may want to ask Bob Rae, Bruce Kidd and Bob White on what made up their minds to allow the stadium's debt to balloon to $400 million? They then sold it to a private consortium including Interbrew for $151 million. The stadium declared bakruptcy in 1998 and was bought out of deblt by Sportsco... For $85 million... see a trend here? Rogers bought it from them for $25 million...

So what inquiry is needed on the part of Roger's? They did nothing wrong. Please get you facts straight before posting...
Roger's simply took advantage of a situation.. The Argos could have made a similar deal and didn't...

re-alfie 111 -Roger's simply took advantage of a situation--- The whole situation IS rank. as you pointed out, imo there should be an inquirey into it.That stadium Cost OVER Half a Billion Dollars,Most of out of taxpayers pockets. and it is bought for 25 million???? to just accept the satus quo is wrong .

The new stadium for the Colts, Lucas Stadium I think it's called, will have a seating capacity of 63,000. Rogers could make the RC seat that amount with reno's I think that should please the NFL for quite a few years I'd think. But as long as the Jays play there, I don't think they could make these reno's as probably it would need to be converted to a football-only field to get that many seats in there. But really, with this type of conversion I really think it could be a better football stadium than it is now. I think it looks pretty decent as a football stadium, gives it some character compared with a baseball configuration when baseball plays there.

Have you noticed that despite the Raptors dismal 5-digit national TV ratings last year, that EVERY network is now broadcasting their games? Tannenbaum obviously called in his markers and told everyone to toe the line and pump up the Raptors. The Star has just gone ga-ga over the Raptors and TFC. Coincidence? The plum: preferential access to the Leafs and Toronto's new NFL team??