Argonauts in BMO, and the Angry TFC Fans

I understand the soccer fans perspective. North American soccer is desperately trying to be given a prominent place in North American sports and one of the key ways they are doing that is by developing and building soccer specific stadiums. Now when the Argos pulled out of two previous deals and didn't want to have anything initially to do with BMO field they thought it would be all their own. So, to now have the argos saying they are talking about pulling the ends off, and painting lines on it for football it ruins to a certain degree their atmosphere, which has the best reputation in the league right now.

Also, I don't understand the mentality of spending millions of dollars to pull off the ends and then add seating to accommodate the argos. Firstly, with all the expansion that they are talking about doing to BMO field they would only bring up the seating capacity to 30,000, which is a 1000 less than the AVERAGE attendance to Argos games. It seems like stupidity. Secondly....I guess I don't have a secondly which I know also seems like stupidity. Just some thoughts on the stadium, I like Rogers Centre...but I have never gone to an argos game there. What is the atmosphere like?

While the current endzone seats would be removed they would be replaced with a set thats movable. These could be brought in close for TFC games and pulled back for Argos games. If done right, soccer fans wouldn't even know the difference.

No one's talking about painting permanent lines on the soccer field. There's no lines on the Blue Jays field, the same principle could be used at BMO. Atmosphere would be unchanged, most likely enhanced due to the added fans.

U of T screwed the Argos over on the Varsity Stadium plan, but you're right, the Argos did back out of the York U idea, this is true. At the same time, Toronto city politicians always meant the stadium to accommodate Canadian football, it was against their wishes that MLSE built the stadium the way they did. Lets not forget, TFC and MLSE do NOT own the stadium, the city of Toronto does, and the Argos have done way more for the city than TFC has.

While I don't hate Skydome for watching the Argos, it could certainly be better. Yes, there's 31k fans in attendance on average and they cheer hard, but the cavernous nature of the dome makes it seem more empty. It hurts the game day experience. BMO would be a more intimate venue, make the in-stadium and TV product better, leading to increased ticket demand and viewership. For the first time in a long time, Argo tickets may be a scarce commodity in Toronto, which is good for the team and the league. Provided that the game-day eperience for TFC is not hurt, and if it makes financial sense for the Argos, I say go for it.

You ever seen anyone get shot with plastic bullets at a cfl game? You ever seen a riot at a cfl game? Learn the facts big lad!!

While the current endzone seats would be removed they would be replaced with a set thats movable. These could be brought in close for TFC games and pulled back for Argos games. If done right, soccer fans wouldn't even know the difference.

No one’s talking about painting permanent lines on the soccer field. There’s no lines on the Blue Jays field, the same principle could be used at BMO. Atmosphere would be unchanged, most likely enhanced due to the added fans.


I’ve seen soccer games in Commonwealth Stadium and the lines are completely gone, but can they do it the same way for artificial turf? I’ve seen games in other football stadiums and from a soccer perspective it looks bush league because you can visibly see the lines. I believe that TFC will fight like crazy to keep the argos out and ruin their reputation in the MLS as the premier stadium experience.

Although like you say they seem to get rid of the lines for the jays. I can’t ever remember seeing lines at a jays game…oh yeah I don’t ever watch the jays.

I guess I’m just not sure that they can keep it as intimate after a reno like that. That’s the tricky part to try and pull that off.

I’m sure ticket prices would have to go up as well because not as many people could go to a game.

For me in this particular case I say if it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it. Again, this is coming from someone who’s never been to an argos game there.

Hahaha why can't it be like it used to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3noM2kSWq9o

Less seats doesn't mean less money. The increased demand for tickets means they will likely always be sold out and can also charge more. The atmosphere will be a huge increase as the fans will be so much closer to the field.

If it can be done while maintaining the facility for TFC I don't see why TFC fans would care, in fact if it means more seats isn't that a good thing?

Got beat by again by Charleston? Another quality uneducated Argotom post....
TFC were runners up in the 2007 Carolina Chanllenge Cup. They beat Charleston 3-0 last year.

This preseason they didn't have the midfield they are fielding now..... They are currently undefeated in the last 4 games.

As a fan of both leagues I see no reason why they couldn't play out of BMO as long as the logistics with the seating and field were worked out. MLSE is not dumb enough to pursue and avenue that will lose them the very support that makes the atmosphere at TFC games. They actually pay attention to the fan forums very carefully and have their collective ears to the ground.

I can understand their anger but some of them are just dumb and can't think about the situation clearly for 2 seconds to see there are ways of making it work. They get so worked up on the smallest things and fly into a frenzy very quickly. Lots of passion - not a lot of thinking. But they can organise themselves effectively enough when they want to.

As for 4th tier - by what standards? yours Argotom - you don't even watch soccer - so how are you a judge of the talent? Teams in the MLS could hold their own in most second division leagues. The top teams are competing very well against club teams from Central America. As usual you prove you know very little about soccer.

MLSE cares what TFC fans think? Ya just like they care about how well the Leafs do right? They are all about making money don't fool yourself into thinking that MLSE actually cares what you want. Like all sports they will cut corners when unnecessary to piss you off just enough that you keep coming back.

As for your defense saying they aren't bad soccer compared to what is the question? MLS isn't that much of a step up from the league the white caps play in. They also have not lost in 4 games. 4 games think about that for a second and tell me whether the 4 games will extrapolate to the rest of the season. Any sports fan knows anything can happen but I wouldn't hold my breath hoping TFC wins the MLS championship or whatever it is called.

What does any of this have to do with the topic on hand?

And yes they do care - They meet on a monthly basis with the supporter groups to discuss items of interest and what can be done to enhance the atmosphere. The Field Manager and MLSE reps are frequent members on the Supporer forums and on TFC's forum. They answer what they can and have been a great help in organising away trips and helping fans out - like the weekend of the TTC strike where the team hired a double decker bus to pick fans up from local bars.

And actually they do care how the Leafs do - just as any parent company would. How would you quantify them not caring - by not winning a Cup? Well then that can be said about every other team in the league at some time or the other.

You obviously don't watch soccer. If you actually watch soccer then you can comment on the quality - saying it isn't much of a step up from the USL is easy considering the USL is considered by FIFA to be the second tier of North American soccer.

Yes 4 games is a little soon to tell - but as someone who has seen every game since day one last year and a season ticket holder I can tell you they have improved. I see them making the playoffs this year if they stay away from the number of injuries they had last year.
No-one said anything about them winning the championship. I fail to see why you would even bring that up.
Good luck to the Whitecaps in the Canada Cup.

I dunno, alphamale, there's EPL, La Liga, the Italian league, the French league, the Brazilian league, the Mexican league... That's a lot of leagues offering higher salaries and attracting the top talent. I would struggle to call it second tier, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'm sure MLSE has someone reading their forums, and they like to listen and cooperate with their fans. But come on, you think they're going to reject a plan that would allow them to save tens of millions of dollars on expansion, not to mention the added revenue in perpetuity due to the increased number of seats, WITHOUT any substantive change to the TFC game day experience, because five or six guys on the RPB forum type "THIS IS OUR HOUSE! %$&@ THE ARGOS!"?

Not a chance, this is MLSE we're talking about. They know that most of the supporters will huff and puff for a while, but in the end they love the team and they'll keep on being a paying customer. And for those who don't, there's lots of names on the waiting list ready to replace them.

Furthermore, I can't see MLSE wanting to set any kind of precedent where they bow to every whim of their supporters group. If they give up a completely rational plan of action over the irrational objections of these supporter groups, It will encourage them to protest any issue they don't like. Not in North America

P.S. You think MLSE listens to Leafs fans?? I remember once when I was that wide-eyed, optimistic, and full of hope...

dmont - I agree with you there. But I compare MLS to say Chamionship League teams in England, Serie B or other Div 2 - similar sized stadiums, quality of players, etc and think the teams in MLS could hold their own in these leagues.

Of course not - MLSE is not stupid. However this is what makes me think the would do everything possible to save the atmosphere - since the original plans included movable seat sections to allow for a CFL field. I'm willing to bet they'd stick to this plan because of the reaction from the most passionate fans.

The majority of those mumbskulls spouting off "This is our house" are not thinking first. As I said they get worked up over ever little thing. MLSE would be worried about the 5000 or so of us who are comfortable being less than 20 yrads from the pitch and creating the atmosphere the rest of the fans love. Losing fans is never good - but to loss supporter groups in the soccer world is like blowing your head off.
Any plan they put into action would / should take this into consideration. To do so without that consideration would seriously jeopradize the very atmosphere they sell to every other fan in the stadium.

The majority of fans really don't care about this - it's the supporter groups that care. MLSE/ TFC really are listen - right now they are currently trying to figure out a way to allow smoke/flares into the supporters sections - at our request. They have done quite a few things at our request to enhance the experience. And when there have been serious problems the sides have always come together and rationally discussed solutions.
They are not bowing to every whim - they are doing what just about every soccer club in the world does with passionate support - the listen and try to do right by them.

I can never support anything that encourages acting on the field, and diving in hockey. All the maple leafs fans should go to the game and boo the soccer team for teaching hockey players that are soccer fans that diving is also ok in hockey, i think you could find a lot more people mad about that espescially in hockey than soccer fans who have a bizarre perception of the CFL.

Good luck getting tickets.......

but seriously - what are you talking about?

alpha don't educate me about soccer.
I know alot more then you think.
European soccer is the best so anything in North America must be compared to same.
MLS which is slightly above the USL is sadly lacking and yes the equivilant of the fouth division in Europe. Most of the players from either Europe and or South America are has beens, never were and over the hill playing for one more pay cheque.
As for the game against the Charleston Battery, do your homework next time, the Toronto FC lost 2-0 against the Battery in the Carolina Challenge and if memory serves me, they lost last year in the same pre season cup.
The TFC finished 0-2-1.
In fact, several teams in the USL could beat any of the MLS; Montreal, Vancouver, Rochester and Carolina for a few.
That's not saying much as both leagues are bad quality soccer.

Funny thing about this video is the fact that TFC fans were the only fans at that game by the looks of it.

TFC fan, face it, the Argos are coming and that's the best thing to ever happen to that land fill you call BMO field. When the Argos take over BMO field, they install turf with permanent football field lines on your precious little pitch.

argotom - I do believe you said "again" in you original response. Meaning they lost to Charleston twice. I was correcting that point. Last year the beat Charleston 3-0 and were runners up to Houston. They had a record of 2-1-0 in the 2007 tournament. How about you doing your homework and reading what you wrote.
I was at the game this year in Charleston - and fully aware of this years score.
As for the make up of the MLS I'll fill you in on that when i get back from my meeting. lol

You know I just busting yer *****
I watch EPL mainly and already know what the quality difference is. Somedays I find MLS unwatchable - but its what we have and it can only get better from here.

Being a CFL fan you have to admit that there is a perception that we are second rate. We've been fighting that all along.
I just don't get your hate on for TFC...

Been away for a few days, somehow I knew this soccer/BMO thing would come up, again, sooner or later. Why are soccer fans so much "it's our" stadium? The city of Toronto owns it and MLSE runs it, isn't that the case? :roll:

Everyone likes to have a home…

TFC fans (supporters) are feeling like they would lose credibility by sharing the stadium for non soccer use… it’s bad enough that it has turf kind of thing… now this???

Quite honestly i don’t see the problem if it’s done properly.

I guess that's how I feel about it. I don't know if it is possible to do without recking the stadium's credibility for soccer.

Plus it's a step down for the argos. Who knows, 10 years from now they may need a 40,000 seat stadium which they have at Skydome. Maybe after people realize that the NFL is not as great as they were lead to believe they'll appreciate the argos and come back to them or give them a second look.

Remember 31,000 was the average. Now everyone is talking about dropping millions of dollars for a stadium expansion of UP TO 30,000. It doesn't make sense to me. I know, I know...atmosphere....still, it doesn't make sense to me.

I bet though that the Rogers people would “like” the Argos to vacate Rogers Centre so they can make it more NFL-ready and since they don’t get a lot of money in rent from the Argos. In fact, I remember Godfrey saying recently in regards to a possible Argo move to BMO if the Argos left it would make reno’s easier that they want to do probably for an NFL team.

Also, mark my words, the NFL is coming to Toronto with a team after the 5 year Bills thing IMHO. It will be sold-out and successful as these games will draw upon a lot of people outside of Toronto. And the RC will be expanded to 60,000 for the new Toronto NFL team and used until maybe a new stadium way, way down the road is built in conjunction with an Olympics or whatever.

And think about it, I love Cynamon and Sokolowski to death but they will take orders on this one from Ted Rogers and Larry Tannenbaum. If they tell C & S to go to BMO, that’s what will happen. No one is a match for Rogers and MLSE combined.

Also, again my opinion, I think the Jays might be in troubel once the RC is made more football NFL 60,000-ready. They will need a new baseball friendly stadium, or else as the RC will have a more definite football look and feel to it with the NFL there.