I stand corrected. Nonetheless, the point remains unchanged you can not expect to hold concerts in a residential neighborhood without any backlash. The new stadium, if built will require much more than Tiger Cat Football to survive. Soccer - concerts - even an NHL hockey game in the winter. How about Toronto vs Buffalo at the new stadium? I'm sure Gary the Didsh&^ will go for that. How about naming the stadium Rim Stadium after big Jim finally gets something in Hamilton with his name on it. The possibilities are endless. How about Innovation Stadium????
a rally to save or invest in IWS is counter-productive.
i hope noone goes to this.
can someone post bob's letter to the mayor?
it wont open when i try the spec link.
thanks.
I will reply to more threads tomorrow, but I wanted to at least say this:
Obviously there must be a bit of a writer/story teller in Bob to own a self-publishing business. Obviously there is a bit of a Ti-Cat fan in Bob for wanting to own a football team. Same goes with owning it in Hamilton specifically. There is obviously some love of his hold town or at least the family that still resides here, to want him to not only invest it in the way he has (time, money, and passion), but to put up with what he has.
Restoring Ivor Wynne and the land that lines Balsam, is a story teller's tale. Not because I have a website dedicated to it. Not because I am writing it sort of speak (with the input of the Ivor Wynne loving/apprecaiting community), but because the history that exists on Balsam from King to Beechwood, is a great story. The memories that have been made within Ivor Wynne is a great story. What Ivor Wynne has meant to not only all fans and visitors, but especially those that neighbor the historic site.
This is a great story because it would do what few cities have done. Preserve a large part of their cities history. Modernize where need be, but keep what is cherished by all. Cherish the parts of the experience that have created the emotional attachment that has accumulated over the various forms of the stadium since a sports facility has existed at 75 Balsam Avenue.
A better story is one different from the rest. One that makes you think. Think 'outside the box' as a poster mentioned. One that makes it stand out amongst the rest, as our stadium has stood out for so long as one of the best experiences in the league and probably across many leagues, thought of as a great little venue to watch football.
A great story is one that touches your soul. Has the ability to bring you to tears, yet feel an energy and a passion that perhaps don't exist (at least currently), in your life at present. You feel inspired. Inspired that you can change the world and accomplish your own dreams.
Throughout this project, I have searched my soul to see if this was more about my inhability to let go. My deep attachment to people and places that I love. That attachment does exist. I won't lie about it and I am sure I am not hiding behind it. I am sure it's obvious and perhaps why I am not being taken too seriously by many, but the data is there.
I know you aren't supposed to let a personal attachment cloud your judgement in life and especially in business. I think a personal attachment is good. Allowing yourself to be passionate about something I think creates an energy and a desire to give something your all, because failure is not an option. The more attached you become in business, in life or in love, the more you will get out of everything.
I am attached to this. I think living by this place has fueled the passion that already existed, and made it even deeper. I will certainly miss the sounds of the stadium should we one day say goodbye. No doubt, it will be like a voice of a lost family member or love, who you would give anything in the world to if only for one moment, hear the sweet sounds of their voice again.
Ivor Wynne is an option - especially if all else fails. Perhaps Longwood and Aberdeen is the answer? The process continues, but if that location somehow hits a stand still, we shouldn't just give up on this opportunity.
I am not saying that no other stadium location/idea could be a great story. All I am saying is that if you don't think the story of the one that would come to be, comes anywhere near the story that a NEW Ivor Wynne would tell, than is this really something we should rush becuase of some free money. If it's that good of an idea, than there would be people lining up to be a part of it and help finance it whether that location was decided in 30 days, or 5 years. Is $60 million really a lot when you look at the money guys like Balsille were willing to put into a hockey franchise in Hamilton? Yes CFL and NHL are different, but that was just one guy.
Perhaps the other reason this is a rush beyond the games deadline itself, is but because the money that should have been spent on keeping it safe for x number of years, is perhaps not being done with 2014 or 2015 in mind as the time when we would be able to say goodbye to Ivor Wynne.
Why do we overlook or find fault in, the community (aka residential neighborhood) feature of the existing/propsoed stadium? If only others realized how emotionally attached you can get to a building, when it becomes something you drive or walk by all year long. When you can hear the sound of it's voice from a few streets over, calling your name. "Why aren't you here? We are having so much fun." When the sound of the announcers are in your ear when you are doing yardwork, when the crowd is cheering on your kids playing touch football in your backyard or in a nearby park. When a cannon breaks you into high-fives and cheers with freinds on your front porch. When you are staning on your sidewalk at attention, hat in hand, as your national anthem plays in the not too far off distance. Getting quieter, than LOUDER as the air shifts and carries the loudspeaker voices rushing throughout the neighborhood streets. What experience to you bring to a new site? Beyond large parking lots, and everything else you can find at any new stadium in north america? What will be different than the rest other than the shape and name? Will people remember it when they leave the parking lot, or will they say I was somewhere up in Canada at some stadium by a highway with lot's of parking and congestion in and out and I didn't see much of the place I was in because I just got on and off the highway and ate at the stadium and parked at the stadium and come to think of it, I just spent $200 on myself at the stadium. Didn't realize you could spend all your money at one place; for one experience? Huh. Shame they didn't put it further into the city with some restaurants and nite life around it so I could get a feel of the city instead of just another exit on the highway, with a big box with a corporate name and logo on it. I remember going to a Canadian Football game once somewhere in the same area. The Stadium was kind of old, but it had a lot of character. Great place to watch football. Would have liked to see another game there one day. Some seat backs and a little exterior paint is all that one would have needed. Shame these new stadiums look all alike in their own ways these days. At least we have the internet to remember what we miss about a 'real' stadium. Ones that had character and actually intimated visiting teams and fans alike. Not much to fear in paradise.
Conerts have almost happend twice in the last 8 years. Two major concerts. Especially the one proposed in 2006 that was approved until $400,000 back then seemed like a lot of money to get Ivor Wynne into concert shape.
Bottome line, if nothing else, Ivor Wynne is at least the best place for the 'civic' side of this whole proposal, and the Legacy if you think for a moment what goin this route could do for the Stipley and surrounding communities.
Why is it counter-productive. It never hurts to discuss things. If nothing else we all learn a little more about the neighborhood and see it in a non-game day vantage point, and pay a tribute to Ivor Wynne if nothing else.
I am proud of this place and this community. All I want is for people to just listen and actu, than to actually read what I have put out there. If in the end NEW is the Cats future home, than what will be will be. I will still love the Cats and go to games. That won’t change. I won’t pout and say nobody listened to me. I will know that I fought for something I believe in. Maybe it’s not the way it should or is supposed to be, but the more options on the table, the better the output whatever form that output produces.
And to hope nobody attends? What are you affraid of? That people will listen to a different voice outisde the ones more readily available to the entire community? At least those people will know a little more about the world and visions that exist outside the points of views of our mainstream media.
I will be happy to at least get a handfull of people who never really thought of Ivor Wynne as an option, to imagine with me what a great thing that could be created, if we looked at the lands linging Balsam.
CFL field is bigger than MLS. Ivor Wynne could host soccer.
Ivor Wynne also hosted the national hockey league during the lockout. It was a lot of fun. A little cold and wet but if I can survive the elements of a winter ice hockey game at Ivor Wynne, I can take anything. 
Whatever the stadium is named, one could only hope that it has the same creedance as the value of changing the name of Civic Stadium, to Ivor Wynne. Whether it be named after a local builder or big business who contibutes many good things to this community.
Dofasco would be a corporate sponsor that I would welcome. It has always been heavily involved in this city. I am an outsider looking in, but Arcel Mittor seems to have embraced the heart of what Dofasco stood for and carried it into their business plans. Stelco once seemed more involved in the community back in the day as well. I remember “Stelco. Our product is steel. Our strenght, is people.” There wasn’t much to that company in the end, and once again as an outsider looking in, it looks like US Steel is 2 or 3 times worse, than Stelco was in it’s final days. If anyone knows of a deep community involvement that I have not seen, please share it. Otherwise, I haven’t seen it.
Those links are awesome Russ. Thanks for sharing. A Rush show at Ivor Wynne would have been amazing. I wish they would spent that $400,000 on Ivor Wynne to host a few concerts at the old girl if her days are numbered. Imagine Rush closing out the stadium or better yet, celebrating it’s rebirth. Back to that whole ‘better’ story thing.
West Harbour would embrace what is beautiful about Ivor Wynne. Thinking outside the box is not doing what everyone else is doing. It’s ‘thinking outside the stadium box’.
And why is Merulla an idiot because he knows this city can’t afford new. I am not actually sure if he is pro-save ivor wynne or just pro don’t spend all that cash, but he speaks truth.
Good to see the boys are making up though. The most important thing is that we don’t lose the cats, as long as there is comprimise on both sides, their mutual decision wil be the right one.
All Bob has lost is what $4M a year. Not sure how much is a lot for someone of Bob’s position, and I realize owners shouldn’t have to lose their shirts, but how much is he really losing with the ‘Cats’, and how much does an average team owner lose?
Turn your business cap backwards and think towards the future to. Light rail, GO more spreadout, much more transit use as these systems come into play and driving is an expensive ‘nice to have’. This is hopefully my children’s future Hamilton. Let’s overlook some gains and replace dollars with sense. Find a mid-ground between Ivor Wynne and East Mountain with regards to parking, to encourage those that use transit today or walk and will now need to take transit, continue to use it so you don’t undo what has been done the past 40 years - thousands of fans once in traffic, now in cars and setting us back into the past. I care more about Hamilton’s future and espcecially my children and their children, than I do football. And I love football.
Find the balance, find a happy fanbase and happy taxpayers.
Thanks very much for your kind setiments, Justafan. I thought you were actually talking about this forum, but glad to know my efforts at Save Ivor Wynne are appreciated.
I have been listening to all arguments and ideas with an open mind. I may seem close-mimded at times, but it’s not that I don’t believe in other ideas suggested, this is just something I believe in and am fighting for. I don’t like that Bob has been cast in the light that many have thrown him into. I believe his heart is in this 100%. The business side of Bob of course is also very apparent as it should be on many levels. But perhaps traditional business thinking has no place in your hometown. Perhaps looking deeper into his innovative hat - the one that has gotten hime this far in life, can once again find him the greatness like the innovation that created Red Hat before business perhaps clouded things.
And I don’t know a lot about Bob the man or business person. Just saying I think he can do more than what was invisioned at the East Mountain. Not that on many levels it wasn’t a good vision and I know it wasn’t his first choice in the first place, but he (we), can do so much better.
What’s the balance between Fenway Park, and Cowboy’s stadium? Preserving history, versus hydro sucking, pollution creating, big box with a corporate logo?
So if their are disclaimers in re- anything type builds, then there are little surprises. Winnipeg is already talking what if their NEW stadium goes over budget. Then what happens. How much over will a new stadium go on average? So do an estimate to do what I have proposed at Ivor Wynne and x it by 1.5. What do you get? $150M? 200M? Far from it I am sure. What is the eco versus benfits to keeping Ivor Wynne versus adding it to a landfill? Do we even know financially how to compare the two or the two different types of jobs created by building new new versus rebuilding?
Maybe you are right? I am not an architect.
I wish CFL docs were as readily available as city docs. I would just like to know where that $30M comes from? Is it all Tiger-Cats or is Lulu, MRX, and the cost of running a business downtown added into that.
There seems to be some big business out there that believes West Harbour is an option. I think it’s all about the way different people look at different situations.
Anyone with a brain. So Katz, White Star, chamber of commerce businesses, and thousands of other people and business who all believe the Harbour would work, have no brains?
There are more unpredictable costs with renovation project. Just the way it is because you can't see the condition of the steel under the concrete or pipes in the floors and walls, many things are difficult to get to. Just the way it is. Electrical systems often have to be gutten completely as the distribution and protection systems are obsolete and parts no longer available.
Is IWS a potential renovation project ? I think it is. You certainly make valid points but it would not be cheaper than new and it would not change its location from a residential burrow, that is the biggest obstacle to your project.
From a "football fan" perspective the new stadium if it is built will have huge shoes to fill...
A 10 year plan was devised by the engineers who inspected and tested it, and the report mentioned $16M over 10 years to keep it safe and fix what was outdated/broken. All the stairways have been recently replaced, as well as lot’s of paint and a nice big scoreboard. Numbers haven’t been compiled to see what it would cost to add more to it like seatbacks or build a mutli-level parking garage and what tearing down Scott Park School and Brian Timmins would cost to create more parking. These things would be ontop of the $16M and I am sure there are other things Bob would have have liked to have seen before a new stadium became an option and Ivor Wynne was the only project that ‘existed’.
Big shoes indeed. Sometimes change is good. Just wondering if it is needed in this case or if a new stadium is really the change we need in this city? What will a new stadium actually change? Just things I wonder.
You have to be able to accept and roll with changes in life - now more so than ever as we quickly evolve. Somtimes I think you need to stand back in all the craziness and think ‘is this really moving forward’, or just moving for the sake of keeping up?
I'm not sure what 16 million buys but it cost 26 million just to add 5000 seats and a couple upgrades like new fence and ticket gate at Molson stadium.
The numbers I remember seeing were 95 million and that would seem about right and I doubt that would include a multi-level parkade.
I agree, everyone was excited in Montreal when they decided to replaced the old Forum, till they realized they were sitting 500 feet further for double the price and bombarded with advertisement from floor to ceiling. Its a big gamble and how the Ticats market themselves to younger and broader regional fans will be key to offset the hard core lifeliong IWS attendees who will have a very hard time accepting this.
Well according to today’s Committe of the Whole meeting here in the Hammer, $93, $94, $95 (numbers I have heard floating around), seem to be consistant. Now to get my hands on that report. $16M to make it save (south stands replacement). What’s the other $70 million for.
Is $95M then a lot considering a new build is going to cost what, upwards of around $150M which will surely go over budget and then by how much? $200M? $250M? We should know what the cost possibilities could be so that the taxpayer knows what they are facing.
That is the bottom line. Everyone understanding all the financials, options, and politics behind what is at stake here.
This process will have been a huge success, if we can walk away with a solid feeling that nothing was left unsaid, unexplored, and that there was nothing to hide.
Council is on break for 15 minutes, but the vote was in favor to explore (unanamously), to explore the Longwood and Aberdeen (403), location. McHattie and Merula asked that Future Fund monies not be allocated to the Longwood site.
Two more weeks of this ahead of us.
The other $70M is to make it usable with things like actual seats. If they spend the $90M it won't look much like IWS except for the concrete seating structures that currently exist. I've seen pictures and frankly they look great. The problem is that the stadium is still in a tough to get to location where no additional events can occur to bring in additional income needed to pay the bills
Thanks AKT. I figured seat backs would be in there. Wish I could get my hands on those pics too. I would like to see the actual vision of what could/could have been, as opposed to the one I have created in my mind which isn’t a bad photo I might add, but if the citizens could only see what could be. It would be a nice vision to at least hold for a few minutes if nothing else.
I may be speaking for myself only here, but I think much what is cherised at the current site is the neighborhood, site lines, and closeness to the fields. Look at Fenway and how modernized it has become over the years. Little key things they have updated, with keeping the important heritage parts of the building in tact the best they could.
I still don’t udnerstand tough to get to with all the major roads around it and yes, like one poster mentioned, Barton can’t be considered a major road even though all maps show it as such. It is 1 lane each way for the better part of the downtown to Ottawa street stretch.
However, Main, King, Cannon, Wilson, and Burlington Street, including north south routes such as Kenilworth, Ottawa Street, Gage and Sherman, all take you to the highway via Burlington St. As Merulla mentioned, parking and access at IWS is a Red Herring. It works now and could work even better with the removal of Scott Park and Brian Timmis to create parking.
One poster mentioned traffic out of a King or Cannon parking garage. I say those same people are parking in the area now so how much more gridlock would it create? Something for a city planner to investiage.
Once again, if anyone has these concept pictures or the report on what they could do with Ivor Wynne, I would love to read through them in whole; not in point form.
The City Report from 2007 was very enlightening from how they actually described how they would replace the south stands, to many other items discussed. I read the entire 158 pages and although some of it was a little too technically, it was a great read. I imagine this ‘other’ report would be an even better read.
Anyone else notice 98% of the posts in this thead are 1 person?
Almost all of page 2 is the same poster over and over making sure this thread is bumpped to the top of the topics.
Give it up already!