I don’t think there’s any danger of MLSE dumping or killing the Argos in their first year of ownership. They’re making so much money on their other franchises that they can afford to lose some money on the Argos – maybe even use it as a tax write-off.
Does a crowd of 9000 for a divisional matchup worry me? Yes. But hearing that they’re charging $76 for upper-level seats, does that attendance surprise me? Not a bit. I don’t know anyone who would pay that much to watch a good team, much less a crappy one. You can’t charge a lot of money for something for which there is little or no demand. It sounds like they need to lower the prices, probably across the board, and try to fill the stadium and make up the difference on concessions and merchandise.
Once they start to pack the stadium, and tickets become hard to get, going to an Argo game will be considered a cool thing to do. The city of Toronto is full of people who will want to be there just to be part of the “in” crowd. Demand for tickets will rise, and then, so can the price.
It’s not going to happen overnight. It’ll take years to turn around the franchise. It’ll cost a lot of money. The good news is that they have deep-pocketed owners who will never run out of money and who are (hopefully) willing to dump some cash on a losing cause in order to get the ship righted.
And people need to stop referring to the Braley era as something from which the Argos need to recover. The problems with the Argos predate Braley’s ownership by decades. He bought the team when no one else would, and when the choice was not Braley or someone else, it was Braley or no team.
I wouldn’t want to make fun of the fans the Argos have… but the fact years of successive management regimes have allowed the Argos to become so irrelevant is something to be ridiculed.
Like others have mentioned. Aggressive papering of crowds is needed as was the case with the Argos when Cynamon and Sokolowski owned the team. Bob Young began his ownership of the Tiger Cats at the same time with the same strategy. Unfortunately for the Argos, C&S didn’t have Bob Young’s deep pockets to turn the corner to viability.
Perhaps to be fair to season ticket holders, the massive discounts and giveaways can be targeted. For example a discounted price bracket for under 30s, a steeper one for under 25s, free for groups of high schoolers with one full price purchase up to 10 per purchase etc…
This way you cultivate a next generation while having estabkished 30+ crowds paying regular (albeit lower than today) pricing schemes.
The city hasn’t outgrown the CFL. 60% of TO can’t even speak english. Just look at the latest census. Some one said a lot of no shows last night, I was one of them with 5 season tickets but I will renew next year. The MLS guy as president of the Argos seems like a mistake to me.
TFC has had poor crowds this year and nobody watches them on TV. The Jays game I went to this year only had 6 or 8 thousand there, I kid you not. I mentioned it after I went in the beginning of the summer. Both sides of 1st and 3rd base lines only. Doesn’t look like strong crowds to me on TV for either one. Raptors for 20+ years had nobody watching up until their playoff run this year and the bottom bowl is full of corporate seats, not even fans who really give a shit about them. So Argos had 3 years in a row with the worst record in the CFL and you say give up. I still see an opportunity for them. Why would anyone want to watch a 8 or 10 th tier soccer league when you have a 2nd tier football league right at BMO. both drawing from the NCAA where the participation rate in football is more than all the other mens sports combined.
We are lucky with the US leagues we have in town, it is their money they send to us as the only reason the teams are viable here. without their money, TV or selling franchises there is no MLS, MLB or NBA in Canada. Without people watching MLS on TV there won’t be a big payout and there is a limit to how many millionaires will want to buy in so the money will dry up for them. Owners are already quite vocal in Vancouver and Montreal about support and if you saw the TV numbers for MLS in Canada you would be shocked. Or maybe not. Will you say the same about them that the city has outgrown them?
I guess some good news is that they are assured of a few thousand extra in attendance next week with Sask in town. Tickets receipts for that alone Should pay 2 or 3 of their lower end salary guys for the year.
I suspect MLSE will be looking to dump their “CFL” problem they thought they could solve in TO in the next year or two. Hasn’t it been 3 years now? I’m not sure what they’re getting out of it if anything. If they are trust breaking even , even after the tv money what’s the point? This time there will be no one coming to the rescue. Crowds of 10k or less in a metro area of 5 mil is simply inexcusable. tSN must be so embarrassed showing games from BMo. Starting to look like Las Vegas posse crowds! Too bad a stadium couldn’t have been built in the 905 area, probably would have worked better in hindsight. Perhaps moving the team to Guelph? London? Instead of the schooners the Atlantic Argonauts actually has a pretty good ring to it.
Yes, but you’re missing one very important point. WINNING. Calgary style: consistent, exciting, strong depth, plug-and-play, good recruiting, smart drafting, marquis quarterback winning. They need 3 or 4 years of a double digit record and THEN evaluate attendance. I would be shocked if it’s not 20K a game or something close to it.
That lightning in a bottle Grey Cup win doesn’t count. I am talking about having solid, winning seasons over a period of time.
Its not Braley in that he did something bad for the league he did something for survival which he felt necessary .
But it was rumoured he financially backed C and S plus had them sign a deal with Rogers at Skydome without exclusivity for football at the stadium which cost them with the Bills take over of the stadium and that was very evident when one visited the dome in the changes that this was no longer a Argo stadium .
Braley owning two teams at once was terrible optics for both franchises and the league .
We all understood why he did it and why the league allowed it to happen .
But there was still life before this happened . Even during the sherwood years they had 17,000 people who were engaged .
That has dropped off the map now .
Credibility issues is not lost on the average sports fan .
The man deserves credit for what he’s done pro for the CFL but this part of his legacy was done as a necessity that may have done much better with the CFL owning the franchise like the Als are now and Braley just helping out with financing secretly without the two ownership fiasco image .
It's a good thing a wealthy ownership group is in charge of this team and willing to lose 5+ million per year. Worst crowds in the league along with the average cheapest ticket at $34 or $35. I watched parts of the game and all the highlights and there were probably no more than 5-6,000 there.
With regards to those upper deck $76 tickets people here are using as an excuse for poor attendance
those upper deck tickets are confined to a small area near centre field
the "upper deck" at BMO Field is not all that high above the field of play given the small lower deck....probably no more than 20 - 25 feet above field level actually.
So in reality the price is not that outrageous as some of you claim. To compare upper deck seats at BMO Field to those at Tim Hortons Field (50 - 60 feet above the field) is asinine.
Here are some prices for the upcoming Saskatchewan game in the lower bowl:
End zone seats - $24.25 including fees
Sideline seats in end zone - $27.25 including fees
10 yard line to goal line - $37.25 including fees
10 yard line to 40 yard line - $57.25 including fees
between 40 yard line - $76.25 including fees
These are the cheapest seats in the league and yet they were half empty or worse this past game. I'm sure the argos give away seats and discount seats like every other team (probably moreso) so the price of those seats on average are actually cheaper! Heck people just got into the stadium for free during the exhibition. About the only other thing they can do is offer a super cheap ticket for kids or free ticket with the purchase of an adult ticket. That will probably not boost attendance as much as some might think though.
Hi I’m the one posting about seat pricing. My seats at Tim Hortons Field are in the upper deck, row 18, right at mid-field. Cost to me for season seats is $32 a game, plus I get 10% off merch and 15% off food and drinks among other things. I used those SEVENTY SIX DOLLAR seats as a comparable because theyre in the exact same section as where mine are in Hamilton. 6 rows above where I sit people can buy tickets today for $39 to see the Argos when they’re in town. Right at mid-field. I’ll take your word for it that THF’s second deck is higher than BMO, but I still struggle to see how the Argos are justifying their pricing, especially considering they’ve been on the decline for a number of years now plus BMO can hold what, 8k more people? Stadium size alone should mean their pricing should be less. By virtue of hardly anyone going this has to be a big factor, can’t see it any other way.
Beyond this, the seats youve listed are in all honesty terrible seats save for the ones that are 10-40yd line if you can get close to the 40yd line. This goes back to my point about how does someone like me sell this to friends of mine (I’m 35 btw). I’m not an Argo fan but I’d go and cheer against them if a friend of two joined me on a Fri/Sat night because I like the game, but I fall into the category of people not wanting to sit in bad seats and I can’t sell the game to someone when I have to tell them its going to cost $57-$76 plus beer/food to go sit in a stadium that is 1/4 full and the team is bad. Its actually an easier sell to get friends of mine to get on a train or bus with me from Toronto to Hamilton to watch the Ticats. Our ticket plus our round trip train/bus fare is cheaper than buying an Argo ticket and significantly more fun.
It just boggles my mind that nobody has figured this out yet. Even my friends who are Argo fans don’t want to go.
Ultimately I know there’s more to it than just pricing, but right now it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Toronto has a shitty f’n team. Simple. Look at Mtl they are turning it around and are drawing crowds. Put a winning product on the field and the fans will come. Nobody wants to watch a loser team with no chance of playoffs, especially in a TO market.
Your seats are $39 with fees and yes, they are much farther away from the field than those seats at BMO. The west grandstand at BMO is the smallest in the league next to the one at Percival-Molson Stadium. Fans are right on top of the action hence the higher price.
Again that is one section. Comparable seats at THF are more expensive.
End zone social area at THF - $36…$12 cheaper at BMO
Sideline seats in End zone at THF - $46…$19 cheaper at BMO
10-yard line to goal line at THF - $56 - $75…$19 - $39 cheaper at BMO
10-yard line to 40 yard line at THF -$82 - $95…$25 - $38 cheaper at BMO
between 40 yard lines at THF - $102…$26 cheaper at BMO
So there you have it. Comparable seats at BMO are FAR CHEAPER than anything at BMO Field and yet the Ticats have no trouble attaining near sellouts while the Argos are averaging 11,000 with the cheapest seats in the league.
Goal posts always get moved with regards to what is required for Toronto to have good attendance.
Back in 2012, the Argos were 9-9 and won the Grey Cup. Average attendance - 23,689
Following year, the club has a good 11-7 record, and finish first in the division. Average attendance actually DROPS to 21,926.
You would think the combination of a Grey Cup win and following that up with a divisional title would have resulted in larger crowds, but that wasn’t the case.
I’m not so sure consecutive winning seasons will improve the Argos fortunes at the gate.
No my seats are $32. I get 11 games for $350 which includes a playoff game, plus they give me a $50 credit for use in the stadium if I renew by their early bird deadline. People can sit 10ft higher than me in my section for $39 if they choose to pay as you go.
Its kind of irrelevant to show that THF tickets in other sections are more expensive because as you said, we sell out, it’s a non-issue. People pay for it there. In absolute dollar terms if you want to sit in a half decent seat at BMO its just too expensive for the product and overall entertainment value. And I stand by my point that it’s easier for me to get people to get on a bus/train with me from Toronto to Hamilton than it is to sell through paying $76 for an upper level ticket at a stadium that is a 10min cab ride away. If we do ever go to BMO we just go on StubHub and buy off someone who’s trying to fire-sale their ticket away because they don’t want to go and nobody will pay face value.
Yes, the Argos screwed up Grey Cup pricing badly – in 2016, under a different mgmt regime. But your friends are wrong about the rest of this. The Argos have offered a great package, including gifts and discounts, to STHs for years. This year the package included scarves, badges, a pin, a 15% discount on merch bought in stadium and coupons for food and drink at BMO. That’s a pretty good “welcome” package.
That is great to hear, and that is a good package. Ticat SSH dont get scarves, badges, and a pin. I havent been aware of what the Argos now offer but I can tell you about 4 years ago when my friends had their seats they got absolutely nothing, then experienced the TravelZoo ticket sell-off which pissed them off. They even went back to their account person about it to see if they could somehow compensate them to keep them happy for the ticket fire sale that was happening and they got nothing. Haven’t been a SSH since.
Don’t worry, Ambrosie will be seen as a genius in thirty years, as Canada will be fully Globalized with no borders and all. Problem is… I don’t think the League will last that long.
IMO he’s easily the worst Commissioner I’ve ever seen in any sport. League Owners/Board of Governors also continually shoot themselves in the foot.
The reason the league started going global was because there were 2 new leagues that would be vying for the same talent as the CFL, with the CFL likely being the 3rd option for most of those that don’t make and NFL roster. The CFL had to look elsewhere. Hopefully the XFL flops again and the CFL doesn’t have to compete for talent, nonetheless, there had to be some vision for recruiting talent elsewhere.