4 reasons why Riders will

Riders will win again if

1 D plays like it did in Grey Cup.

2 Miller is not a big drop off from Austin.

3 Miller and Tillman are right about Marshall and young receivers.

4 Young players do good and step in for Hunt and Perry.

Riders will not win again if

1 Crandall throws more picks than tds. Makes Tillman look foolish

2 Young linebackers cant replace Reggie Hunt

3 Dominguez and Washington are still hurt. And young receivers are not good enough.

4 Congi has bad year.

I mean no offense, but "duh"...

Comes down to three things:

  1. Tillman (and staff's) talent assessment
  2. Miller's ability to get max from players.
  3. Injuries.

If Tillman missed the mark, the team is dead. Austin got alot out of players and the team that people did not expect. Can Miller do the same?

1 Crandall throws more picks than tds. Makes Tillman look foolish
How does Tillman look foolish? The Joseph trade had to happen. - Get Over It -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect

You might be thinking I'm going to lecture my good friend jm02 about her comment with this definition of respect I looked up. Well I'm not. I'm here to lecture anyone that doesn't give the Grey Cup champions the respect they deserve. Not just the Riders this year, but any team in any year that goes all the way deserves each and everyone of us on the forums respect. Its the leagues ultimate prize and I think some fans have lost touch with how to celebrate it. And how to pay everyone associated with the club the respect they deserve. Its all pretty senseless.

kel

Why even bring my name up, then? Nice little backhanded "compliment" there, "kel"...

:roll:

Quite the odd "lecture", especially given the source.
Did you write the Wikipedia entry yourself, kel?
Given that it says this :

This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.

at the top of the page, I wouldn't doubt it.
Odd. Very odd. Or as you say--senseless.

ET was forced to do something stupid?

I think what Thryllin meant, Arius, is its clear that Joseph did not want to come back if he didnt get his raise. He made noises about trying out with the Saints, so why would you want him back if he really didn't want to play in Regina-- looking back at in now, he wanted the trade, so Tillman accommodated him.

meaning no dis respect to the riders, but cant think of any reason why anyone would want to be somewhere other than sask, hmmmm

Yep, it sure does sound disrespectful...and totally uninformed.

I am not sure whether that is what Thryllin meant or not.
What I do know is, KJ has repeatedly stated he absolutely wanted to play here next year, it was his right to try out for the saints--you simply do not trade a guy for that--and as ET never even made KJ an offer, who knows what he might have accepted for a raise. Kevin Glenn made noise in Winnipeg. They signed him. Joe Smith made noise in BC. They signed him. Players make noise about their contracts. You do not trade them for that.
KJ did not want to be traded--he wanted to be treated fairly.
I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions as to whether he was or was not in the end....
But trading KJ was stupid. And nobody forced ET to do it.

I've always maintained but never shared this before, that Kerry Joseph is not unlike my buddies 95' Chev Lumina. It well oiled reg. and well maintained so it runs well but its passing ability lacks satisfaction. It's quite a few years older now and it just about time to get rid of it because it has some major issues coming up involving cost and repair.

Sound familiar? Its a pretty simple valuation I know.

kel

Sticking with the simple valuations, while Marcus Crandell might be a Chev Lumina, we all know that even in '95, that vehicle wasn't much of a car, and all the tender loving care in the world won't make it a collector's item. Kerry Joseph on the other hand has proven himself to be perhaps a Ferrari? And if properly maintained, it will always be the superior car to a Chev anything, let alone a Lumina. Add in the fact that your Lumina is the same age as the Ferrari, why would you get rid of the Ferrari so you can drive a Lumina. Now someone will claim you can not afford the Ferrari, but in this analogy, that is not the case. Plus, you need a fast car, not a family sedan, so a cheap family sedan actually serves no purpose, therefore is actually money wasted.

Tillman said over and over Joseph told him he wanted $100,000 raise. Do you think they were lying when they said they flew Joseph to Regina to talk? Do you think they lied about Tillman and Joseph meeting? Lying and Joseph really didnt say he wanted $100,000 raise? I hated seeing Joseph traded. Dont like what we got for him. But spare us the BS of Joseph WANTED to be here. He WANTED the money more. He thought Tillman would give in to him. He pushed. Nothing wrong with Joseph doing that. But it was a risk. Tillman didnt give in. He said Joseph said this to him face to face. He would not be happy unless he made $350,000. If he said that why offer him less? After you fly the man in and he tells him that in a face to face meeting. Wouldnt offering him less be an insult? Especially after he said I wont be happy with anything less than a $100,000 raise. What else was said? Did they talk or yell? I dont know. You dont know. But if the Riders just wanted to trade him. Why fly Joseph in to talk?

Another question for you Arius? Can you answer the 4 things this thread was about? Or do you have to do the same every time. Turn every thread into what you think the gm is doing wrong.

Answer the 4 things?
I actually did not have anything to add to what JM said.
But I'll repeat it for you. "Duh".

Anyway, interesting story you tell about the KJ/ET thing. Who cares if they flew him in? ET is the one who stated, for the record, that he never made KJ an offer. He is the one who said it was his interpretation that KJ and the Riders were too far apart, so he never bothered to make an ofer. KJ suggested he wanted to be paid fairly--as a starter, a MOP and Grey Cup winner, after carrying this team on his shoulders, taking the big pay cut, he wanted fairness. He was traded instead. He wanted 100,000? He should have got 100,000. It was not a tough call. Just do it. At no time did KJ ask to be traded. In fact, it was quite the opposite. He has emphatically stated he wanted to play in Regina. Kent Austin threatens to leave, we offer to double his salary. ET wants to renegotiate his salary/extend it, and the talk is we will double his salary. Both men would then be either the highest paid, or close to the highest paid men in their respective positions. KJ wants to be paid fair market value and he is shown the door.
Nobody here except you is suggesting anyone lied about anything. But for you, to criticise someone is to accuse them of lying. And when another poster brings up an issue, ie., the Joseph trade was a "necessity", to suggest otherwise is to call ET a liar.
Well I don't need to call him a liar. From his lips to our ears--he never made KJ an offer. KJ was under contract for 250,000 this year. He wasn't going anywhere. Better you let him play out his option than the choice that was made. But to make no other options than "take the status quo or we'll trade you" is not a particularly good display of common sense.
Kevin Glenn was saying exactly the same things in Winnipeg as KJ was here. Did Taman trade him? No. Were they able to after a period of negotiations, which no doubt featured some give on both sides, reach an agreement? Yes. What ET tells you about this deal isn't a lie. It is nonsense.
I do not believe ET seriously wanted to extend KJ's contract. He wants to sink or swim with the young guys. It was a choice. He made it. Now we will see. If this doesn't work out, we won't be extending his contract, he'll be unemployed. That is the extent of this trade and the impact it will have.
But for me, there simply are no variables that will ever make this trade a "good trade". You do not judge a trade just on hindsight. You judge it on a number of things. And one of those things is, how do you treat your players. Do you treat them fairly, and honestly and show class as an organization. Or do you do what was done in this instance. And in the Fred Perry instance. Maybe the Armstead case sits here as well.
In every case, ET tells his gussied up version of events. And then there is the rest of the story.
KJ wanted a 100,000 raise. Should have been done. In a heartbeat. Period.
How does that jive with the "ET version" you put forth?

I've always maintained but never shared this before, that Kerry Joseph is not unlike my buddies 95' Chev Lumina. It well oiled reg. and well maintained so it runs well but its passing ability lacks satisfaction. It's quite a few years older now and it just about time to get rid of it because it has some major issues coming up involving cost and repair.

Sound familiar? Its a pretty simple valuation I know.

kel
[/quote]
Sticking with the simple valuations, while Marcus Crandell might be a Chev Lumina, we all know that even in '95, that vehicle wasn't much of a car, and all the tender loving care in the world won't make it a collector's item. Kerry Joseph on the other hand has proven himself to be perhaps a Ferrari? And if properly maintained, it will always be the superior car to a Chev anything, let alone a Lumina. Add in the fact that your Lumina is the same age as the Ferrari, why would you get rid of the Ferrari so you can drive a Lumina. Now someone will claim you can not afford the Ferrari, but in this analogy, that is not the case. Plus, you need a fast car, not a family sedan, so a cheap family sedan actually serves no purpose, therefore is actually money wasted.
[/quote]
LOL!!! Crandell may very well be a Lumina, although I think its unfair to assess at this time. But Joseph a Ferrari? Papa Enzo just rolled in his grave man! I think my buddies, soon to break down, black 95' Lumina still rings closer to Kerrys likeness. Besides, no mater how good the Lumina is or was, its physical peak was in 95', similar to that of one Kerry Joseph.

kel

I really do think "duh" summed it up, but my reputation for verbosity demands a response. And you asked for it. So...

Really? You think the Riders can win again if the defence plays great. All the young players play great, and the rookie coach is great?
And we won't win if our starting QB s.ucks, our receivers are all injured and their replacements are brutal, if replacements on defence are no good and our place kicker suddenly can't kick field goals?
Sheesh!
I think we already have LBs that will replace Hunt, but Perry will be a challenge. At this moment we have only a wing and a prayer starting at DE.
But the defence can actually be better this year than last year--though trading Perry made that less likely.
Marshall, smarshall. He is just one of a half dozen guys fighting for a job. If he is the best of the bunch, great. If he isn't, thanks for coming out! Being fast doesn't make you a quality receiver. But I do have him pencilled in as the return guy.
Yeah, great, Kent Austin was coach of the year, Grey Cup, wahoo!! No one actually knows how good a coach he is, or might have been. All I know is, he did a very nice job stepping into a very good situation, and the multitude of rookie mistakes he made didn't hurt us. I see no reason to see why Miller can't have similar success. And if he sticks around a few years, maybe he'll actually be a better coach than Austin.

On your negative side:

  1. ET already looks foolish. Now it is just "how foolish?" But if Crandell does what he has done throughout his 12 years as a pro QB and throws more picks than TDs, he just won't be playing. Then when Durant/Jyles/Tate come in and play well, ET will actually be once again heralded as a genius. Then you won't need to worry about religous persecution...

  2. Yeh. it will be tough if we have noboby at the outside LB spot. As I suspect we will have, no problem...will they be as good as Reggie? maybe, maybe not. You lose an all-star and team leader, others will need to pick it up. But LB will not likely be an area of concern. Defensive line on the otherhand....

  3. Yes, I suppose if our best receiver is hurt, and a promising young player like Washington is hurt, and the two guys who we replace them with can't catch the ball, that will be a problem....that had to be the biggest "duh" of the group.

  4. If you do not have a competant field goal kicker, that is also a concern. Did you pick names out of a hat? Why not, "If O'Day, Makowsky, Smith, all have lousy years, that'll not be good". Or if Cates is hurt and the back-ups are lousy, then what?
    Maybe Johnson, Davis and the DBs will all be hurt, or just lousy? Congi is not a concern. I expect him to be better this year, not worse. But why would you single him out?
    Runner-up in the "top DUH" catagory.

Defending a championship is tough. And we have done ourselves no favours this year in gearing up to repeat. Can we do it? Sure. We will stil be a good football team. But we are not as good, on paper, as we were last year heading into to training camp. And frankly, I think you at best did a half-assed job of telling us why....

Crandell has been in the league for 12 years. After the Lumina was on the market that long, was the appraisal, "Chevy mediocrity" a fair assesment or not? Or were you and your buddy still hoping one more tune-up would make it a race car.
KJ is THE best athlete at the QB position in the league. He is a fierce competitor and has proven leadership characteristics. That makes him a Ferrari. And he was the best QB in the league last year, and gave the Riders the best performance by any QB they have had since 1976. I know we could have won more Grey Cups with him as our QB. I know no such thing with Marcus Crandell.
And before you go talking about the best before date on KJ, you need to look a little closer at the date for Marcus "I am the same age as KJ" Crandell. And his best before date seems to have been in 2002.
There is no reason why KJ could not play at an elite level for another 3-5 years. Maybe longer. Based just on that one factor, the whole age thing as reason to discard him makes no sense. You do not discard your starting QB like you would a used car.