Vince Young

Re: Vince Young

by JimmytheGreek » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:42 am

depopulationINC wrote:
JimmytheGreek wrote:
cheater wrote:Way too much concern over someone who may not even make it to training camp.



The concern comes from what seems to be "the plan" we keep hearing "the plan" didn't include a qb that has had success here in the past. Fine, then taking a long shot on someone like Young sound like a good plan? Sure doesn't seem like it in my books.

If they wanted to bring in some young qb's with honest potential I wouldn't have a problem with that. This though? Yeah again it seems so much like grasping at straws. Again probably wasting time on such a long shot when there is so little of it to fritter away during practices seems not the wisest use of resources.

Heck if we had a bonified starter and they wanted to muck around with this that would be one thing but we don't so how about quit screwing around on these "projects" and bear down on finding us the next Durant, or Austin, or Ronnie. Jones got himself in this pickle by walking away from Darian and that is his choice but I honestly felt he had a legitimate qb in mind or at the very least a legitimate potential qb coming in.

Oh I know we haven't even gotten to training camp and lots can change yet, but this has been said ever since the trade and so far? Yeah really, really impressive so far.

I have nothing against Young or Glenn or anyone we have here now, that said though this is not exactly what I envisioned as the way we would be heading into the season and the new stadium.

Thus the reason for the amount of concern and I'm sure I'm not alone in that either.


Who is saying "the plan" that we apparently keep hearing about?
I don't recall seeing that here nor seeing anyone from the Rider office ever saying anything like it.


An excerpt from when Jones was hired.

I can tell you we're going to put a really high quality, high character staff together that enjoys being around each other. We're going to bring in good people first that happen to be good football players."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/jones-hired-as-head-coach-of-saskatchewan-roughriders-1.3354324

This is part of what is being referred to as "the plan"
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Re: Vince Young

by depopulationINC » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:05 am

JimmytheGreek wrote:An excerpt from when Jones was hired.

I can tell you we're going to put a really high quality, high character staff together that enjoys being around each other. We're going to bring in good people first that happen to be good football players."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/jones-hired-as-head-coach-of-saskatchewan-roughriders-1.3354324

This is part of what is being referred to as "the plan"


so "the plan" which you felt a need to emphasis and say we "keep hearing" is a general statement that they are going to bring in good players that every staff member on every team in every league in every sport ever in existence has made in one fashion or another? Alrighty then. One of the more odd things I have seen on here around a pretty damned ambiguous statement.
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Re: Vince Young

by JimmytheGreek » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:23 am

I mentioned it was an excerpt from what Jones and Murphs is telling us is the plan. If you want to read all of their statements on what their plan is then knock yourself out, we are told it often enough in the papers and interviews.
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Re: Vince Young

by LeStaf » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:42 am

depopulationINC wrote:
LeStaf wrote:Honnêtement, je m'imagine mal Young devenir un partant dans cette ligue.

Il n'a pas joué au football depuis 6 ans et il n'a jamais joué au football canadien. Même dans la NFL, il a un ratio de passes complétées de moins de 60%, et je ne crois pas qu'il va améliorer ça à 34 ans, après 6 ans d'inactivité. Tout ce que sa présence va donner, c'est un peu de publicité pour l'équipe et lui aux USA. S'il reste au sein de l'équipe, il prendra du temps d'entraînement aux jeunes quarts-arrières pour un gars qui ne finira peut-être pas la saison.

Je me méfie toujours de ces joueurs qui se présentent dans la LCF en se disant que c'est du football, donc ils savent ce que c'est. Je me souviens de l'ouverture du camp d'entraînement des Alouettes en 2014 où j'ai parlé avec Troy Smith. J'ai pointé ses souliers et je lui ai dit qu'il en avait des très grands à remplir (en parlant de Calvillo). Il m'a fait tout un boniment pour me dire qu'il savait mais qu'il avait beaucoup de bagage de football et que ça allait fonctionner. Je lui ai dit que si c'est ce qu'il pensait, il ne finirait pas la saison. Je lui ai dit de ne pas sous-estimer cette ligue et encore moins la quantité de travail qu'il avait devant lui pour s'y adapter. Il m'a regardé surpris de mes propos et m'a indiqué qu'il travaillait fort. Je lui ai dit que c'était tant mieux, mais que ce n'était pas assez et qu'il le réaliserait un moment donné. Ça a fini par arriver et l'aventure Troy Smith s'est terminée rapidement. Le résultat final : les Alouettes ont perdu un an dans leur recherche d'un quart-arrière d'avenir.

Je ne vois pas la venue de Young comme une façon de relancer cette équipe, même s'il devait s'y tailler un poste. Il sera une recrue qui empêchera de développer une vraie recrue.


while completion percentage is important I don't have an issue with a roughly 60% NFL passer...Doug Flutie is regarded as one of the best CFL QBs of all time and had a career average of 1% higher overall and 4 or 5 lower than young within th NFL itself. Jeff Garcia did well in both leagues ant was under 62 in each. Peyton Manning is regarded as a premier pocket passer of our time and was a 65% passer while providing essentially nothing for mobility. Even the mighty Tom Brady, probably the best QB of all time, is only around 5% higher at under 64%. You need to realize that there are only like maybe 40 or 50 or so QBs in NFL history (who have actually played real time of say more than 1000 pass attempts) that have completed over 60% in their careers and not a single one...to my knowledge...has averaged 70. IIRC Drew Brees us the most accurate NFL QB of all time an is around 67% I believe.

now when comparing NFL and CFL completion percentages I have always noticed that most QBs go up a couple points in the CFL vs their NFL numbers....perhaps something to do with experience but I have always attributed it a lot to the bigger field giving more room to throw a receiver open. Garcia is an example of a guy who put up similar numbers in both leagues and did it well in both...but most seem to go up a bit from what I have seen. Of course the past couple of years where you draw a flag for looking at a receiver wrong is skewing those numbers up in a massive way...Henry Burris, for example, crushed his career average the past 2 seasons....bigtime....so I would say that couple percent should be 5+ now to translate to a success story...assuming the no touching rules still apply....that is to say Young should be 63-65% or better to really be viewed as a successful transition accuracy wise. But again career wise nobody in the CFL has hit 70 and there are only a few that are 65%+...Ray, Dickenson, Collaros, Willy, Mitchell, Reilly. You will notice that 4 of 6 of those players have thrown most of their passes under the "no touching rules" and one of the best of all time in the CFL in Anthony Calvillo was a 62.4% QB and only broke 70% once.

If a QB generally gains a couple points historically transitioning from the NFL to the CFL and most QBs in the CFL are up 5% or better under new rules then a roughly 60% passer in the NFL...if he has the arm strength for the wider field (big if) he could do good things.

IMO the big concern with Young is TD to INT ratio and INTs/pass rating. Some of that...in fairness...is that a bulk of his career his receivers plain old sucked....put it this way, they were a brutal 4 win team the year before him and were 8-8 with him as a rookie and 10-6 the following year...despite the fact that the ream really truly still did suck...especially the O


I'm not advocating that Young will be a screaming success or even that he will make the team...just pointing out that some of the things you point out I kinda shrug off. Like I said before...he is a QB that finds success in extended plays and that is kinda the exact opposite of what this O aims to do...so that will be a problem likely



Ce que j'ai remarqué, c'est que dans un passé récent du football professionnel, le taux de 60% de passes complétées est un seuil qui sépare les quarts-arrières qui vont pouvoir mener leur équipe jusqu'au bout par rapport à ceux qui n'y parviendront jamais. Il y a effectivement peu de quarts-arrières qui ont affiché ce taux de passes complétés dans l'histoire, mais si on recule avant les années 2000, on ne peut pas dire que ce taux était la norme des meilleurs non plus. Le football a évolué depuis et les statistiques également. Ce 60% est plus une norme actuelle. Des 25 quarts-arrières qui ont eu le plus de gains par la passe dans l'histoire du football, 14 ont passé cette norme, dont 7 sont toujours actifs. Les retraités de ce groupe incluent Anthony Calvillo, Henry Burris et Peyton Manning. D'une certaine façon, cette statistique tend à confirmer à la fois votre analyse et la mienne.
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Re: Vince Young

by depopulationINC » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:28 am

JimmytheGreek wrote:I mentioned it was an excerpt from what Jones and Murphs is telling us is the plan. If you want to read all of their statements on what their plan is then knock yourself out, we are told it often enough in the papers and interviews.



I read and watch about everything they put out there and have never ever seen anything that would make someone stress "the plan" and find it pretty humorous...they are pretty tight lipped about players not under contract in all honesty and that kinda goes against what you are trying to say here...not sure where you dreamed this one up. There normal statement is along the lines of 'we have lots of guys we are looking at and we are always trying to get better at every position' and 'we want to talk about players that are here not those that are not or might be' so I am straight up calling shenanigans on stressing this supposed "plan" talk

What you really oddly seem to need to label as "the plan" is, again, something that every staff member ever says. If you feel they have brought no players of quality in that is just strange....might not agree with everything they have done...nobody is going to...but to try to say they are not bringing in quality players is just silly.


Again...one of the oddest things I have seen on here.
Last edited by depopulationINC on Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vince Young

by depopulationINC » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:32 am

LeStaf wrote:
depopulationINC wrote:
LeStaf wrote:Honnêtement, je m'imagine mal Young devenir un partant dans cette ligue.

Il n'a pas joué au football depuis 6 ans et il n'a jamais joué au football canadien. Même dans la NFL, il a un ratio de passes complétées de moins de 60%, et je ne crois pas qu'il va améliorer ça à 34 ans, après 6 ans d'inactivité. Tout ce que sa présence va donner, c'est un peu de publicité pour l'équipe et lui aux USA. S'il reste au sein de l'équipe, il prendra du temps d'entraînement aux jeunes quarts-arrières pour un gars qui ne finira peut-être pas la saison.

Je me méfie toujours de ces joueurs qui se présentent dans la LCF en se disant que c'est du football, donc ils savent ce que c'est. Je me souviens de l'ouverture du camp d'entraînement des Alouettes en 2014 où j'ai parlé avec Troy Smith. J'ai pointé ses souliers et je lui ai dit qu'il en avait des très grands à remplir (en parlant de Calvillo). Il m'a fait tout un boniment pour me dire qu'il savait mais qu'il avait beaucoup de bagage de football et que ça allait fonctionner. Je lui ai dit que si c'est ce qu'il pensait, il ne finirait pas la saison. Je lui ai dit de ne pas sous-estimer cette ligue et encore moins la quantité de travail qu'il avait devant lui pour s'y adapter. Il m'a regardé surpris de mes propos et m'a indiqué qu'il travaillait fort. Je lui ai dit que c'était tant mieux, mais que ce n'était pas assez et qu'il le réaliserait un moment donné. Ça a fini par arriver et l'aventure Troy Smith s'est terminée rapidement. Le résultat final : les Alouettes ont perdu un an dans leur recherche d'un quart-arrière d'avenir.

Je ne vois pas la venue de Young comme une façon de relancer cette équipe, même s'il devait s'y tailler un poste. Il sera une recrue qui empêchera de développer une vraie recrue.


while completion percentage is important I don't have an issue with a roughly 60% NFL passer...Doug Flutie is regarded as one of the best CFL QBs of all time and had a career average of 1% higher overall and 4 or 5 lower than young within th NFL itself. Jeff Garcia did well in both leagues ant was under 62 in each. Peyton Manning is regarded as a premier pocket passer of our time and was a 65% passer while providing essentially nothing for mobility. Even the mighty Tom Brady, probably the best QB of all time, is only around 5% higher at under 64%. You need to realize that there are only like maybe 40 or 50 or so QBs in NFL history (who have actually played real time of say more than 1000 pass attempts) that have completed over 60% in their careers and not a single one...to my knowledge...has averaged 70. IIRC Drew Brees us the most accurate NFL QB of all time an is around 67% I believe.

now when comparing NFL and CFL completion percentages I have always noticed that most QBs go up a couple points in the CFL vs their NFL numbers....perhaps something to do with experience but I have always attributed it a lot to the bigger field giving more room to throw a receiver open. Garcia is an example of a guy who put up similar numbers in both leagues and did it well in both...but most seem to go up a bit from what I have seen. Of course the past couple of years where you draw a flag for looking at a receiver wrong is skewing those numbers up in a massive way...Henry Burris, for example, crushed his career average the past 2 seasons....bigtime....so I would say that couple percent should be 5+ now to translate to a success story...assuming the no touching rules still apply....that is to say Young should be 63-65% or better to really be viewed as a successful transition accuracy wise. But again career wise nobody in the CFL has hit 70 and there are only a few that are 65%+...Ray, Dickenson, Collaros, Willy, Mitchell, Reilly. You will notice that 4 of 6 of those players have thrown most of their passes under the "no touching rules" and one of the best of all time in the CFL in Anthony Calvillo was a 62.4% QB and only broke 70% once.

If a QB generally gains a couple points historically transitioning from the NFL to the CFL and most QBs in the CFL are up 5% or better under new rules then a roughly 60% passer in the NFL...if he has the arm strength for the wider field (big if) he could do good things.

IMO the big concern with Young is TD to INT ratio and INTs/pass rating. Some of that...in fairness...is that a bulk of his career his receivers plain old sucked....put it this way, they were a brutal 4 win team the year before him and were 8-8 with him as a rookie and 10-6 the following year...despite the fact that the ream really truly still did suck...especially the O


I'm not advocating that Young will be a screaming success or even that he will make the team...just pointing out that some of the things you point out I kinda shrug off. Like I said before...he is a QB that finds success in extended plays and that is kinda the exact opposite of what this O aims to do...so that will be a problem likely



Ce que j'ai remarqué, c'est que dans un passé récent du football professionnel, le taux de 60% de passes complétées est un seuil qui sépare les quarts-arrières qui vont pouvoir mener leur équipe jusqu'au bout par rapport à ceux qui n'y parviendront jamais. Il y a effectivement peu de quarts-arrières qui ont affiché ce taux de passes complétés dans l'histoire, mais si on recule avant les années 2000, on ne peut pas dire que ce taux était la norme des meilleurs non plus. Le football a évolué depuis et les statistiques également. Ce 60% est plus une norme actuelle. Des 25 quarts-arrières qui ont eu le plus de gains par la passe dans l'histoire du football, 14 ont passé cette norme, dont 7 sont toujours actifs. Les retraités de ce groupe incluent Anthony Calvillo, Henry Burris et Peyton Manning. D'une certaine façon, cette statistique tend à confirmer à la fois votre analyse et la mienne.



so roughly half the winning QBs break the 60% pass completion point and Young was historically right there and should move up a bit under new CFL rules...as all QBs have. Seems to me that he should be right around the completion percentage that a team can hope for then...in theory of course.
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Re: Vince Young

by LeStaf » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:53 pm

depopulationINC wrote:
so roughly half the winning QBs break the 60% pass completion point and Young was historically right there and should move up a bit under new CFL rules...as all QBs have. Seems to me that he should be right around the completion percentage that a team can hope for then...in theory of course.


Il se peut, en effet. Nous devrons attendre quelques saisons avant de considérer si ce pourcentage de 60% n'est pas devenu 65% ou 68% dans la LCF avec les nouveaux règlements de couverture de passe.
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Re: Vince Young

by Taleback » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:02 pm

Kerry Joseph had 58.5% when he won the cup with Riders in 2007.
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Re: Vince Young

by depopulationINC » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:52 pm

Taleback wrote:Kerry Joseph had 58.5% when he won the cup with Riders in 2007.


True...I think under the limited contact rules a QB not breaking 62 will struggle winning though
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Re: Vince Young

by nowhereman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:07 pm

Taleback wrote:Kerry Joseph had 58.5% when he won the cup with Riders in 2007.

If Glenn hadn't broken his arm, I doubt we would've won that game...just sayin'.
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Re: Vince Young

by Taleback » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Well that's good then. We have a "shoulda won" winning Grey cup Q.B. as starting option this year.
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Re: Vince Young

by depopulationINC » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:08 pm

I'd love to see Glenn won one....and that has nothing to do with the team he is on.
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Re: Vince Young

by Preisst » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:25 pm

nowhereman wrote:
Taleback wrote:Kerry Joseph had 58.5% when he won the cup with Riders in 2007.

If Glenn hadn't broken his arm, I doubt we would've won that game...just sayin'.



What a complete and utter load of poop.....
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Re: Vince Young

by nowhereman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Preisst wrote:
nowhereman wrote:
Taleback wrote:Kerry Joseph had 58.5% when he won the cup with Riders in 2007.

If Glenn hadn't broken his arm, I doubt we would've won that game...just sayin'.



What a complete and utter load of poop.....

Really? We barely squeak it out with Dinwiddie as their QB (making his first CFL start)...give your head a shake.
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Re: Vince Young

by depopulationINC » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:01 pm

nowhereman wrote:Really? We barely squeak it out with Dinwiddie as their QB (making his first CFL start)...give your head a shake.


It is tough to say...I mean there is definite merit that the Bombers likely do a lot better with him but there is a lot to the mentality going into the game. As soon as he was out the Riders became pretty heavy favorites in the cup and that can do a lot to a team's play in a game...pretty easy to get i your own head and you more often see a team play down to their opponent that up to them. Had Glenn not went down and they played better the Riders may have played better as well....we will never know.
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